Wurli: low output in treble section (not reed bar placement)

Started by juniornoodle, November 29, 2014, 11:36:53 AM

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juniornoodle

My Wurlitzer 200a has reduced volume in the treble section all the way from about C#5 til the highest note. I tried to adjust the strike line on the treble side of the piano by moving the reed bar as far forward (toward the keys) as possible but this did little as the reed bar seemed to be as far forward as it could go. What could be going on here? Is it common for this whole section of the piano to have low volume output?

Thanks!

juniornoodle

I just tried adjusting the strike line on an individual note, which may have helped a touch, though I'm not sure, and the difference in volume between this note and the lower notes on the piano is still quite large.

Also, FYI, I've gone through the all the previous steps in the service manual, e.g. adjusted lost motion, so the action of piano should be mostly in order.

These reeds (smallest/highest pitch on the piano) shouldn't ware out as quickly as the other sections right?

juniornoodle

Quote from: juniornoodle on November 29, 2014, 11:36:53 AM
My Wurlitzer 200a has reduced volume in the treble section all the way from about C#5 til the highest note. I tried to adjust the strike line on the treble side of the piano by moving the reed bar as far forward (toward the keys) as possible but this did little as the reed bar seemed to be as far forward as it could go. What could be going on here? Is it common for this whole section of the piano to have low volume output?

Thanks!

pianotuner steveo

Are your hammers letting off too early?

Did you shim the treble side? If so, it may be too high.

1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

juniornoodle

Thanks for your reply. I very recently adjusted the let off so that it's 1/8" across the board. Double checked for anomalies in the treble section but everything looks right.

I did not place any shims in the piano. There are a couple of paper shims under the balance rail on the treble side that I think were placed in the factory. These do not go further than about key 47. There are also a couple of paper disc-shaped shims on the treble keys underneath the felts, but where that is the case, there is only one shim, so this shouldn't be the issue.

pianotuner steveo

No, I am talking about the reed bar being shimmed too high, but that does not sound like the case.

Remember, the Wurlitzer reed bar uses rubber or plastic shims here to prevent the reed bar  mounting screws from shorting out the + and - halves of the reed bar to ground.

Are those shims in place?

Did someone previous to you file away at the pickup section to prevent the reeds from hitting the sides? I did see that once or twice.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

juniornoodle

Ah I see what you mean regarding shims now. Those rubbery white shims are in place.

No sign of the pickups being damaged or portions filed. The reeds are all quite close to the pickups at this section of the piano.

Should I set the let off closer to the reeds on these specific quiet notes?

Is it likely that the reeds are just old and need replaced here? Didn't seem like it'd be the simplest explanation to me.

pianotuner steveo

#7
No, bad reeds do not drop in volume. They go flat, then break.

Setting letoff too close can break reeds or at least cause hammers to block. If the letoff is too far away, you have to practically pound on the keys to get any volume.

I am a bit stumpped. Did someone do something to the treble hammers that made the felt too soft?

(chemical softener)

1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

cinnanon

#8
Make sure you have good connections in both the ground and DC supply to the reedbar on that side. Sometimes you get that yellow crusty oxidized s**t on the metal parts.  With the piano off, remove the connections and just hit the connection with a file. Check the connection between the two reedbar pickups on that side too.

pianotuner steveo

Yeah, I did not think of that. Do you have a difference in the DC voltage on the 2 halves of the reed bar?
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

4kinga

Nothing to input other than watching. 
My 200 has the same issue.  Almost like a filter being applied to the output.  (bad component in the amp?).  The above was also checked on mine to no avail. Basically, as you go up in the register, the tone become duller and quieter.  If you play it unplugged, all notes sound as they should (The upper register sounds as loud and crisp as the mid.)

pianotuner steveo

#11
Ok, then it likely is an electronic issue, not mechanical.

Something could be filtering treble, so that would likely a capacitor issue.

Your input was pretty helpful!
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

juniornoodle

I have been away for a few days with a really busy work schedule but I appreciate the input. I just tested the DC voltage and, if I understand how to measure it properly, both sides of the reed bar measure the same. I have an analog multimeter, so my reading might not be totally accurate but it looked like it was about 80 volts on both sides. Should I be connecting one lead to the actual pickup and the other to the frame of the read bar? This is what I did and it was the only way I could get the multimeter to register a reading.

Like the other poster who has a similar issue (4kinga), my problem in scale doesn't become apparent to my ear until I turn the piano on, suggesting an electronic issue. However, a difference on my piano is that the volume drops considerable between approximately keys 52 (louder) and 53 (quieter), rather than the volume dropping gradually over a number of keys. Again, keys 53 or so up to 64 are pretty quiet.

Other thoughts?

pianotuner steveo

1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

juniornoodle

I believe it's been like this since I purchased it. When I got the piano, the action was quite of of order so I didn't pay it much notice, but now that everything else is feeling and sounding good, it's noticeable. A friend of mine who's a pianist played the piano and noted that it wasn't too bad and that it could be normal for that register, but I imagine it should still be louder here.

pianotuner steveo

Are you positive that the quiet keys are not letting off too early?

1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

juniornoodle

Yes, I'm sure they're not letting off too early. The check off on my piano varies a bit from key to key, but that shouldn't impact this I guess. I'm at a loss for what other details I can provide.

cinnanon

Just a thought, have you played another wurlitzer that sounds differently than yours? The C#5 on up, is that the last octave of the piano or last two?  Generally the last octave is much quieter i've noticed. I assumed it is the shorter reeds. The longer reeds travel further when hit harder, but the shorter the reed, the shorter the potential for travel. Make sense or errant blasphemy?

pianotuner steveo

Check off and let off are not the same thing, and yes, it is Somewhat normal for the shorter reeds to have a little less volume, but a significant drop, no.
Letting off way too soon can cause this.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

juniornoodle

Quote from: cinnamonrolli on January 14, 2015, 11:25:40 AM
Just a thought, have you played another wurlitzer that sounds differently than yours? The C#5 on up, is that the last octave of the piano or last two?  Generally the last octave is much quieter i've noticed. I assumed it is the shorter reeds. The longer reeds travel further when hit harder, but the shorter the reed, the shorter the potential for travel. Make sense or errant blasphemy?

Yes, I am talking about just the last octave. The principles you're describing here make sense to me, though I agree with Steve that the drop-off in volume seems more pronounced than one would expect. I haven't had a lot of exposure to properly set up Wurlis beyond my own, so not a lot to compare to, but again, this seems much too quiet.

juniornoodle

Quote from: pianotuner steveo on January 14, 2015, 08:16:39 PM
Check off and let off are not the same thing, and yes, it is Somewhat normal for the shorter reeds to have a little less volume, but a significant drop, no.
Letting off way too soon can cause this.

I am aware of the difference between let off and check off. Just mentioned check off in case it would bring up any other ideas. It's the only variable that I haven't yet judiciously accounted for when restoring my piano. Again, let off is very uniform and up to spec.

cinnanon

Any resolution on this issue?  I have the identical issue and confirmed with a new amplifier test that it is not electrical. All mechanical.  I will get to the bottom of it sooner or later.

juniornoodle

I never truly resolved this issue. In the end I have just been learning to deal with it, and for my purposes, it has never caused any major problems. Still not truly sure whether the volume dip in the treble is terribly abnormal on my piano because I haven't played many other Wurlis. Do you feel that the volume dip you're experiencing is abnormal compared to other Wurlis or what it should be?

cinnanon

Quote from: juniornoodle on September 11, 2016, 08:56:31 PM
Do you feel that the volume dip you're experiencing is abnormal compared to other Wurlis or what it should be?

Oh it is definitely abnormal. I have a couple others and have played many others. This one sticks out. There should be a gradual decline in volume but not a drop off. I am unsure if all of the reeds are bad or what.  I am going to replace a reed with a known good reed from another piano and get back wth the results. Something tells me it will make no difference.

pianotuner steveo

I agree- I have owned more than 20 Wurlitzers and used to repair them often for clients,(in the '80's and '90's) but I've never seen one with this problem. I do not think changing the Reed will help, but let us know what happens....

A little off topic here, but what I find unusual is that people in my area seemed to have all sold off their Wurlis- I rarely ever get any calls for servicing them anymore. I serviced a 145 a year ago, and haven't had any since. But some of you guys seem to be doing a lot with them. I wonder why. ( There are no other techs that work on EPs around here,either) Very strange. I live in the middle of about 7 small cities, but no real large cities around here. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

cinnanon

Quote from: pianotuner steveo on September 12, 2016, 08:16:44 AM
I agree- I have owned more than 20 Wurlitzers and used to repair them often for clients,(in the '80's and '90's) but I've never seen one with this problem. I do not think changing the Reed will help, but let us know what happens....

A little off topic here, but what I find unusual is that people in my area seemed to have all sold off their Wurlis- I rarely ever get any calls for servicing them anymore. I serviced a 145 a year ago, and haven't had any since. But some of you guys seem to be doing a lot with them. I wonder why. ( There are no other techs that work on EPs around here,either) Very strange. I live in the middle of about 7 small cities, but no real large cities around here. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

I don't think the reed will help either.  The only other thing left is the position of the reeds relative to the pickup. I may need to raise the pickups in that section slightly.

As far as servicing goes, maybe you just do excellent work, and there's no more to service!

juniornoodle

Cinnanon, do let us know what you come up with. I am very curious if you'll be able to improve the situation.

Steveo, I bet you'd have a number of pianos to service where I am in the NYC area. It's actually quite hard to find someone to work on them here.
What an odd drop-off year-to-year though - wow 145 one year and 0 the next?

cinnanon

Quote from: juniornoodle on September 12, 2016, 08:21:40 PM
Cinnanon, do let us know what you come up with. I am very curious if you'll be able to improve the situation.

In my tinkering tonight, I had some progress.  The reeds are louder and sustain longer when they are extended the most (meaning the reed is pushed forward closest to the pickup). This is kind of a no-brainer but thought I should mention.  Reedscrews have to be pretty darn tight too. I'm sort of wondering if the reed screw holes are too far from the inside edge of the reedbar on my particular keyboard.  I wonder what the mfg. tolerances were, and how close they were actually held. I'm going to put a thin washer under the reed to see if lifting it off of the reedbar has any effect.

It sounds like the reeds just can't "get there" if you know what I mean.  They don't have the initial volume that the rest of the keys do.  And if volume is directly proportional to the oscillation height, then the reeds are either cracked, or too far from the inner edge of the reedbar. I'm guessing the latter since I put in a good reed and it sounded completely dull.  I have a 200 that is just as loud in the last octave as it is in the middle, if not slightly more ear-piercing.

I think the screw holes are too far away from the edge of the reed bar, dampening the reeds almost immediately.  They can never achieve maximum apex.

I'm going to get some steel shim stock at work tomorrow and cut the shape out.  If it doesn't work, then it's one other thing I can rule out.

cinnanon

I forgot the shim stock, but before I do that, I'm going to swap the good treble reed bar in for the weak treble reed bar. I know this may affect strike line, but I tested that on the weak treble reed bar already. I did this by loosening the two bolts that affix the hammer rail to the metal chassis, and slid the rail back and forth changing the strike line.  No apparent changes in volume. If the good treble reed bar sounds good, I'll report out from there. If it does, I'd say the issue has to do with the mfg. repeatability of the reedbar with respect to the reedscrew holes. Id say they're too far back.  My gut tells me this is the case.  I feel like I'm getting closer.  I may need to model this up soon and take a skim cut along the inside front edge of the reedbar on one of the machines here.

4kinga


cinnanon

No testing yet, but looking at the reeds, I noticed that the reed shape changes where my volume drop occurs.  The reeds get thinner, and the fillet radius is smaller too. (2nd picture shows the reed change, notice the reed fillet starts over the reedbar.  The last reed before the treble reeds is loud too.  See how it overhangs?).  The first picture just shows the last few reeds, and how they are further back from the edge than the previous reeds.

juniornoodle

#31
Also looking forward to the results. It's really convenient that you have another reed bar to swap in. Makes for a great test!

cinnanon

I swapped reedbars, and the dullness followed the reedbar! Which in my eyes ruled out yet another thing.  Finally, I took a flat file to the inside edge of the reedbar, reinstalled the reed and viola!  Instant gratification!  I could not believe my ears. Volume, sustain, like the mid section. I filed off very little, maybe .010" or so, but it did the trick. I wedged the vacuum cleaner between the reedbar and hammers to catch any filings. I am following suit on all notes in this section, and finding this is the answer for each and every one.  For my symptoms, I can say this is the answer. The picture told the story for me. The reeds were just too far back from the edge.

pianotuner steveo

Wait, I'm a little confused. Where exactly did you use the file?
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

cinnanon

I filed the edge of the reedbar closest to the reedbar screw.  It is a razor knife edge. Only took a minute amount of filing to break that edge. Slight filing immediately improved sustain and volume.

juniornoodle

I might have the idea of what you're getting at. Are you saying that you made the top edge of the reed bar closest to the pickups rounded instead of a right angle? And if so, that would have helped because there's now less surface area on the reed bar for the front of the reed to touch? This makes sense to me as it sounds like you're saying the reed bar was inhibiting the reed from vibrating where there wasn't enough overhang of the front of the reed over the reed bar.


4kinga

Hmmm.  This is interesting.  I'm going to pull mine apart this week and see if mine are also farther back from the edge.  If so, I'm going to give this a shot and listen if I get similar results.  Since mine is a gradual decrease through-out the upper register, I may have to remove all of the reads and take it down from there.

cinnanon

Quote from: juniornoodle on September 19, 2016, 12:10:21 AM
Are you saying that you made the top edge of the reed bar closest to the pickups rounded instead of a right angle?

Not necessarily rounded, just filed.  If you look from the side, it is not a right-angled ledge.  It is more like a 60 deg. edge that is razor sharp.  A little bit of filing moves that leading edge back considerably.

Quote from: juniornoodle on September 19, 2016, 12:10:21 AM
that would have helped because there's now less surface area on the reed bar for the front of the reed to touch? This makes sense to me as it sounds like you're saying the reed bar was inhibiting the reed from vibrating where there wasn't enough overhang of the front of the reed over the reed bar.
Yes this was my hunch.

Quote from: 4kinga on September 19, 2016, 07:18:15 AM
Hmmm.  This is interesting.  I'm going to pull mine apart this week and see if mine are also farther back from the edge.  If so, I'm going to give this a shot and listen if I get similar results.  Since mine is a gradual decrease through-out the upper register, I may have to remove all of the reads and take it down from there.

Take a look at your reed position first. See if they are behind the line.  I had dull short ringing notes before filing, and louder longer sustaining notes after.


cinnanon

Another tip is to use longer reeds.  I had some reeds that, when centered on the reed screw, sounded dull.  Upon extending to maximum length, the volume and sustain increased.  Using longer reeds helped the sustain too (say, a reed from 2 notes below). Anyone try this yet?