1969 Suitcase Front Rail Pins Problem

[Oliver Sheen]

I bought the above piano in pieces in 2011. I am now attempting a restoration it but seem to have fallen at the first fence.

From the attached photo you will see the pins in the front rail are not evenly spaced making it impossible to fit the white keys. The keys I received with the piano I believe came from different instrument as there are about 90 of them (!)

I presume all white rhodes keys were similar in that the holes for the front rail pins are in the middle of the keys (left to right) and so the corresponding pin rail should similarly be equally spaced.

The rail doesn't look tampered with so it's all a bit of a mystery to me. The only option I believe I have is to remove the pins, fill in the old holes and drill new ones in the correct places. All other pins (balance rail, black key pins etc) seem to be in the right place.

Any info would be gratefully received.

Oliver Sheen

[David Aubke]

It's not apparent from the photograph exactly what the problem is. The front guide pins are not supposed to be evenly spaced but rather grouped in a pattern that matches the black/white key relationship of the scale. The pins for Bs and Cs should be closer to each other than Cs and Ds. (correction)

Is your set of replacement keys complete? Sets of keys are cut from a single slab of wood and are meant to be installed in the same order as they were cut. If you try to mix and match the same notes from different octaves, they will not fit well.

I doubt your pins need to be realigned. If you don't have a complete set, try to get what you have sorted in order using the stamped numbers and then maybe sand down the sides of oddballs until they fit with their neighbors. Really, a complete set would be better. I believe they're cut from a single slab so that when the wood changes over time due to humidity changes, all the keys change in the same way and don't start rubbing against one another.

[David Aubke]

I didn't read your original post carefully enough.

Those sure look like Rhodes keys to me. All of the front mortises are indeed centered in the head of the key but that does not mean they're evenly spaced.

Frankly, after having drawn models of keys, I'm a little baffled by the mathematics of the whole thing. My attempts to standardize the widths of the heads and tails failed and I ended up slightly fudging some of them to make everything fit. It's more complicated than it looks.

[Cormac Long]

Given that the pedestals shown are flat and don't seem to have felts, I suspect they are from the short-lived period where felts were stuck to the all-plastic hammers instead.

Can you post photos of the hammers and also of the date/serial details on the top-right of the harp?

[Oliver Sheen]

Thanks for the reply guys please find attached phots of the harp label and hammers as requested.

Also there are photos of the morticed hammers and corresponding front rail pins. The hammer mortices are (more or less) evenly spaced.

The front rail pins are not. They are either about 15mm or 25mm appart. No other variation apart from that.

Now I maybe as thick as a whale omlette but how can these keys fit onto those pins.....?

[Oliver Sheen]

2nd pic

[Oliver Sheen]

3rd pic

[Oliver Sheen]

Hi david When I say the front rail pins I'm reffering ONLY to the very front pins that hold the white keys. The pins on the next row back are indeed for the black notes and are grouped in 2s then 3s then 2s then 3s etc. as you would expoect of black keys.

The irregular spacing of the front pins mean that regularly spaced mortices (as found in ALL Rhodes keyboards to my limited knowledge) will never fit on said front rail

[David Aubke]

They've gone both ways: regular and irregular. I wasn't aware of this when I posted earlier but I've reviewed photos of past pianos and my 1973 had irregular front pins. The rest had regularly-spaced pins.

My 1973 had fully-skirted keys. On these, the underlying wood is only as wide as the tail, even under the head. So the mortises were indeed off-center to the heads. The rest have evenly spaced mortises.

Looks like you've got an early piano and late keys. Sorry for the confusion from my earlier post.

[Oliver Sheen]

Hi Dave the "irregular spaced pins" photo doesn't have the pins, just a plain plank? Also do you have a photo of the keys themselves for an irregualr spaced front rail? I can't quite get my head around how they would have morticed these out.

So all in all would my best bet to be to try and move the pins or, indeed replace the entire front rail?

KR

Oliver

[Oliver Sheen]

Hang on. Does this mean that it's not a 1969 but a 1973 piano?

[David Aubke]

No, I'm just saying my 1973 was similar to your 1969.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a set of keys to fit your piano. I've never noticed a set of those Pratt-Read skirted keys for sale anywhere.

Unless someone else has a suggestion, you may be looking at filling and redrilling. Is the spacing between the front and middle mortises compatible? I believe this spacing has changed over the years.

[David Aubke]

the "irregular spaced pins" photo doesn't have the pins, just a plain plank?

They're on the other side. The photo was taken from the rear. The plain plank is where the action rail would mount.

Hang on.. I've got a sort of photo illustration of a Pratt-Read key.

[Oliver Sheen]

Not sure about the compatability of spacing between front and balance rails... I guess the thing to do is take out the from pins then see how the keys sit.

[David Aubke]

[Oliver Sheen]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!

[Oliver Sheen]

Knowledge is power. Thanks Dave!

[David Aubke]

My records suggest your mortise spacing is going to be a problem.

Pratt-Read mortise width.


Later mortise width


[edit]Though maybe 4mm isn't too much. I thought there were major differences between certain years[/edit]

[Ben Bove]

I scanned through the post very quickly so, sorry if this was mentioned -

The keys you have there do not match the piano.  They appear to be from 1976 based on the lack of felt on the key pedestal, the white fronts of the key caps with mild chipping at the ends, and the rounded corners of the black keys.  They just won't fit the frame of a 1969 piano.  As I see above, David posted pics of the earlier style of keycaps, which have wrap around (full skirted) key caps, where you can't see the wood on the sides.  The surface is also slightly rounded, which would help you identify them online.

That being said, even when you do locate a set of keys prior to the 49th week of 1973, it may not instantly install either.  They will fit, however be prepared for some light fitting exercises to get the keys moving without rubbing - adjusting the pins, maybe light sanding at the back of a few, etc.

The specific keys that would match with this piano have what is referred to as a "Marcel Curve" or a slight dip in the key pedestal, to match the curviture of the hammer.  However, any set prior to the date above will work better.  As a reference:

http://www.vintagevibe.com/collections/fender-rhodes-action-parts/products/fender-rhodes-keys-vintage-curved-marcel-pedestal

In an ideal world, you'd be able to buy an earlier set, and sell your current set for a swap out.

[David Aubke]

http://www.vintagevibe.com/collections/fender-rhodes-action-parts/products/fender-rhodes-keys-vintage-curved-marcel-pedestal

Well, there ya go. For just under 900 USD, you can get what you need.

[Ben Bove]

Haha... yeah I think the link is better suited for one or two chipped keys or single replacements of that nature.  I have an incomplete set of keys myself for spares... but ideally a full 73 set should come up sooner or later on ebay, to which he could turn around and ebay off his keys.  They made enough of the full skirt keys so it should pop up.

[Oliver Sheen]

OK here's where I am tonight.

All the black keys fit perfectly and strike the correct tines. The white ones fit on the middle and rear rails without rubbing so it's just those darned pesky front rail pins.

I'm thinking it's going to be easier and quicker to adjust the front rail pins to fit rather than wait for a complete set to come up here on eBay.co.uk (I always watch and can't remember last time I saw a set) and even if I DID find a set they'd still need work to fit (probably)

Does anyone think this course of action would be the wrong one? How do the pins come out? Do they unscrew?

[Oliver Sheen]

In answer earler question ave, yes, the mortising between the front and middle holes seems copatible ie. the same

[The Real MC]

I discovered the hard way that keysets are NOT interchangeable between pianos. 

I used to own a Rhodes with awful hollow shell keys.  I bought a surplus set of full wood keys, only to find they don't fit.

Then I got a silvertop and tried to fit the full wood keys.  The pic below shows how incompatible they are.



The old silvertop pianos have literally no interchangeable parts with later pianos, and the only way to change keysets is to have the companion pin blocks.

Rhodes used multiple suppliers of keysets over the years and there is no standard pinhole allocation between them.

[Oliver Sheen]

Not sure what I'm looking at there. Is that the Silver top with badly fitting wooden keys?

[Chris Carroll]

Hey Oliver,
I think I have a full set of 67-68 keys and pre 74 Pratt and Reed keys. Both are still on Key Frames. I would just replace the whole key frame. Alternatly I could come up with a better price on a full set of individual keys to use on your existing key frame if that's how you would rather go. You do not need Marcel pedestals as replacements. By the way, I see you have felt hammer tips. I have been really enjoying the tone of the felt tips lately. We just did a 73 and 74 Fender Rhodes piano with them and the sound is unreal- so warm and rich. I'm getting addicted to the tone!! We have new sets of the felt hammer tips at Vintage Vibe  if you want to keep it original.

[Oliver Sheen]

Hi Quadrapuss

Sounds interesting can you let me know prices shipping costs etc. I think I'm gonna need quite a bit of kit.

KR

O

[The Real MC]

Not sure what I'm looking at there. Is that the Silver top with badly fitting wooden keys?

The piano is the silvertop.  The top key is from '67 silvertop, bottom key from '76 stage.

[Oliver Sheen]

Thanks I understand now. My 69 is a MK1 not a Silvertop so as I say, essentially quite a good fit.

Think I'll go ahead with moving the pins, then. Anyone know how to get them out?

[David Aubke]

I've always been able to pull pins with a pair of pliers. I've never intended to reinstall the same pins before though so I haven't concerned myself with damage from the pliers' jaws. I'll bet even with some padding taped onto the jaws, you'd still be able to get enough of a grip to do the job.

Once, I made a tool for removing and reinstalling the pins but now I think it's way overkill. Pliers for removal and a small hammer for installation has yielded satisfactory results.

[Fred]

Front rail pins can usually be tapped out from the bottom with a nail set and hammer.

[David Aubke]

Front rail pins can usually be tapped out from the bottom with a nail set and hammer.

I've encountered a few pianos where the pin hole did not appear to be drilled through.

[Fred]

I've encountered a few pianos where the pin hole did not appear to be drilled through.

That's why you can "usually" tap them out, not as a rule. It's a much faster and less damaging way to do it if the holes are drilled through. If not, pliers are a viable alternative, as you mentioned.   

[Oliver Sheen]

Thanks Dave. I love the elegance of that tool. Perhaps if you attached a motor to thread to wind it in and out would speed things up?

[David Aubke]

Perhaps if you attached a motor to thread to wind it in and out would speed things up?

Probably would but I don't even know where that tool is anymore. Pliers work fine and the tool wouldn't work when the pin holes were not drilled all the way through.

[David Aubke]

Once, I made a tool for removing and reinstalling the pins but now I think it's way overkill. Pliers for removal and a small hammer for installation has yielded satisfactory results.

I take that back. Last night I found myself trying to pull rusted pins from a 1974 and they would not budge. I got a few out but worried I would either split the keyframe wood or wallow out the holes if I continued. The custom tool I made turned out to be a life-saver.

[Oliver Sheen]

OK well it's been some time, over a year actually.

I got the pins out of the front rail and the keys sit quite happily in the keyframe on the middle pins and play quite nicely if a little loose. Now I'm looking at filling the holes so I can drill new ones to re set the pins.

The original holes appear to be tapered i.e. larger diameter at the top than the bottom. What would be the best way to fill these? The new holes are going to have to be so close to the old ones I'll need to make a metal jig and clamp to the keyframe so as not to drift into the old hole. I'm thinking of filling with sawdust mixed with wood glue. Has anybody a better suggestion than this?

Many thanks

Oliver

[pianotuner steveo]

Either that method or very thin dowels, such as wooden BBQ skewers, cut to length.

I just do not understand why you need to do this. Is this a 73 key frame and you have keys from an 88? ( I skimmed through previous posts but did not read every one)

[Oliver Sheen]

Thanks for the reply. Yes it's a 73 frame with an 88 key set but the piano is a 1969 transitional Mark 1 (single twist tone bars) and it's original keyboard had Pratt-Reed skirted key caps. The key mortices and corresponding front rail pins for the Pratt-Reed skirted keyboards were irregularly spaced whereas the later all wooden keys (the keys I have for it from a 1976 Mk1)  were regularly spaced.

For clarity and ease I have attached the photo of the underside of the keys.

[David Aubke]

Facebook links are hit-or-miss for me but maybe this will work.

This is how I like to make dowels for filling holes.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/ShadetreeKeys/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1694600330859381

[Oliver Sheen]

Hi Dave I would use dowels but as I'm having to drill new holes very close to, and sometimes touching, the old filled holes I thought a dowel might splinter and lose integrity. I have just filled the holes with wood glue and fine sawdust so will see.

I have other questions about my refurb. Shall I post them here or start a new thread?

[pnoboy]

Facebook links are hit-or-miss for me but maybe this will work.

This is how I like to make dowels for filling holes.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/ShadetreeKeys/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1694600330859381

When I want to plug a hole in wood, and I want to match the grain orientation and type of wood, I use a plug cutter--works like a charm.  I used this technique to move the balance-rail pins in an acoustic piano without any problems.

[Oliver Sheen]

I haven't come across plug cutters before - you live and learn. I may well be getting one if the glue and sawdust fails. Thanks

[Oliver Sheen]

OK so it would appear that the problem with glue and sawdust is that, even when dry the glue/saw dust mix is still not as hard as the wood and therefore the drill will drift into the more resilient material (even when using a guide)

I'm going to go down the plug cutter route. My questions is in order to get the plug material and original Rhodes keybed as close as possible in density and behaviour I could do with knowing what the original keybeds were made of. It looks like beech or something to me but then, I'm no expert.

Thanks

Oliver

[pianotuner steveo]

Most wooden piano parts (except keys) are made from maple. Keys are usually basswood, or sugar Pine.

[Oliver Sheen]

Thanks Steveo on second thoughts I think I'm going to replace the whole of the front rail. All the holes are now getting s close together that the plank is losing integrity. Will keep y'all posted