News:

Shipping now! "Classic Keys" book, a celebration of vintage keyboards  More...

Main Menu

'81 mark 2 stage restoration issues (probably escapement)

Started by groover, December 19, 2015, 07:52:46 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

groover

Just moving my post to this thread...

HI guys,
Still in the process of restoring my '81 mark 2 stage and wanted to get some advice on a few things. I have got all my pickups working now and replaced all pedestal felts and hammer tips. Its coming along nicely.
Issue with escapement...
I've seen quite a few posts here about these models having huge escapement distances (at least compared to the manual's measurements). I seem to have the same issue. Escapement distance is roughly between 5 to 10mm, thats a lot more than whats said in the manual. Its pretty even over the whole piano and doesn't differ in different sections as shown in the manual either. I thought this might be achieved with differing hammer heights as you move up the piano but all the new tips i got in the replacement hammer tip kit  from VV are pretty much the same height (except the high wooden tips are taller). Some posts have suggested removing the shims from either side that the harp assembly sits on, but i don't want to do that in case it causes other issues and trying to find something to put it back to how it is now would be a pain. Steven K's post said he removed quite a bit of wood underneath the subframe to get the hammers closer to the keys which i'm not in a position to do either. I guess it can stay how it is but i wonder how much better i could get the action if i could minimise the escapement to something closer to the manual specs.
Theres quite a lot of slop in the action, as in there's not much response till very close to the full depress of a key. But i have come across a fix which seems to be working for this piano. I'll post a pic. I have got some nylon 'washers' and put them under the key felts which is giving me much better response from the keys. i can play soft and i'm still hearing the notes. Whereas before if i played soft i might not hear any note at all. I'm just wondering what you guys think of this idea. It doesn't help with escapement, and there's a slight bit more aftertouch but the keys are giving me a much better responsive feel, and therefore it plays less sloppily. Not sure if this is the best solution to fix and tighten up the action but it seems to be working for me. Any thoughts and suggestions on these issues are greatly appreciated.
Cheers guys

groover

I seem to have hit a snag with my nylon washer fix to help with key response. The aftertouch with the washers on at the top end is enough to have the hammer tips touching the tines and therefore muting or choking the notes. So unless i play lightly at the top end i'm gonna choke the notes as i play. Therefore i don't think this is the solution to my action/key response issues. I think the escapement at the top end (wooden tips) is close to the manual specs (quite close to the tines) and i think this is due to the taller wooden hammer tips. I was incorrect in saying these nylon washers don't affect escapement. They do. The tips are closer to the tines when the keys are depressed with the washers on. And the keys are more responsive but feel a lot heavier to play. This issue is really bugging me. I'm at a loss as to what to do. Does anyone have any advice as to how to fix this escapement issue and therefore get this action to respond as i know it should? Is the escapement the issue? I'm thinking that it is. When i have the washers under the felts of the key pins which effectively lessens my escapement, the response and action is much better. So i think i need lower the tines to get them closer to the hammer tips somehow to get a more responsive and dynamic piano.
Here is the video from Steven K who by the sounds of things routed out the case to lower the whole subframe to get the hammers closer to the keys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7LadyV1-DY

This is the same piano i have and looks like he's achieved the response that i'm looking for. Soft touch, responsive and dynamic keys. Has anyone got any suggestions or experience with these escapement problems of the '80's mark 2 stage series? I have seen some suggestions of removing the shim from the bass side of the harp assembly where it sits on the subframe, therefore lowering that side by about 4mm but i think the bass side needs to be lower than that. As i said i think the top end has good escapement and feels and responds as i think it should. I just wish i could get the rest of the keys to feel and respond as the top end (wooden tip) does.
I would be grateful for any advice or suggestions, I'm really stuck as to what to try next to fix this issue.
Cheers

pianotuner steveo

Removing the shims won't help- it sounds like you may need to raise the harp on the treble end. Is the nylon washer idea messing up your key leveling? Is it giving you excessive key height?
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

groover

If i stick with this setup i'll definately need to use the paper shims i've got to level some keys. Some are sitting lower than others but its nothing too excessive. I wanted to purchase a whole new set of paper shims from VV but the description on the website says that they aren't compatible with the mark 2 plastic key models. Not sure where i can get some more from. Any ideas?
With the nylon washers i'm getting about 3 to 4 mm extra height on the keys, which i think is ok, but i'm seeing that extra 3-4mm movement in aftertouch, whereas without the nylon washers theres hardly any aftertouch as the keys sit almost on the front rail felt when depressed.
As i've said the action feels heavier with the washers on, but i'm getting more response from the keys which i think is because the escapement is smaller. So i think my goal to get the best action would be to not use the nylon washers to get a lighter feel but reduce the escapement to get more response from the keys. This is only my theory though. Escapement at the middle of my keyboard without the nylon washers is about 10mm, its pretty much that all across the piano as the hammer tips are all about the same height. Does this sound excessive?
Your suggestion of raising the treble end would be helpful if i am going to keep using the nylon washer idea, but i'd love to get it responsive without them ultimately, therefore giving me a lighter action.
Thanks for your thoughts

pnoboy

Have you measured your key dip?  It should be around 9.5 to 10 mm--perhaps a tad higher.  If it's lower than that, the usual fix is to remove some washers under the balance-rail felts, or to shim under the aluminum extrusions that form the support for the whole action.  If the dip is too high, the usual fix is to add washers under the balance-rail felts.  I think you're going to need some kind of balance-rail washers to level your keys, anyway.  If the standard balance-rail paper punchings are too small to fit over the plastic pins, maybe you could get front-rail punchings, and with a paper punch of some sort, make a bigger hole to fit the plastic pins.

groover

Thanks. The key dip is fine. It is measuring around 9.5 to 10mm. I've taken out all the nylon washers now, deciding to go with the lighter feel with a slightly less responsive action at the bass end. Yep i'll definately be using the punchings i've got to level my keys. I have tried removing the shim from the bass side of the harp assembly to try and minimise the escapement and achieve a more responsive action but it doesn't seem to have made much difference so i think i'll put it back and finish setting the piano up as is. Not sure what else i can do, maybe this is the best its gonna get. I've got a '67 suitcase sparkle top which i plan on restoring next, which i'm really looking forward to. Might be time to finish this one and move on to that  :)