New tines? Could use some advice!

[rhodesjuzz]

Hello Rhodes people. I have a few things on which I really appreciatie your advice. (please forgive my poor English  )

I just finished tuning (equal) my Rhodes (suitcase 1976 with tapered hammertips) and noticed a few things which I hadn't noticed before. 

First, the tine of D3 is too short. To make it properly tuned the tuning spring is almost falling of from the tine. This means the spring instead of the tine is kinda oscillating in front of the pickup. This note sounds too soft and has almost no bark. From the damaging on the screw that connects the tine to the tonebar, my guess is that this tine has been replaced before (could be 20 years ago?... I own this piano 4 years now).
The same goes for A#3 but the spring is fully around the tine, the sound is good but always has an initial beat (even when tuned on the exact cent).

Second, E6 (I think it is #61) has almost no sustain. The damper is coming of properly and the neighbours tonebars don't touch each other. Could this be a tine issue, the tone bar screw (grommets) or do I have to add a tone bar clip?

I can sell new tines and screws etc at http://ep-service.nl/rhodes-tine-long (official reseller VintageVibe in the Netherlands) from VV, but how will they sound? I read a few thing about this in other topics, but I couldn't find clear statements and experiences from other Rhodes owners. VV claimes these new tines can be used on any Rhodes from 1970 and later but how are they sound wise? Do they only blend in with early Rhodes pianos (about '73)?

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=8010.0 just stopped without any conslusion of http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=1649

Thanks Roy

[Stangee]

My 5 cents:

Re. D3: Change the tine. There are basically just two options - a used one from Ebay or a new one from VV /EP-service, like it or not! There is a cutting chart in the Rhodes manual so as long as you get one that is long enough, you should be good. This post was quite interesting by the way: http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=6440.0

Re. A#3: Have you checked that the tine screw and the hammer tip are tightly fastened and secure?

Re. E6: I would check the tonebar screws and grommets first

Cheers

[Peter Hayes]

There are basically just two options - a used one from Ebay or a new one from VV /EP-service, like it or not!

I beg to differ. I'm guessing there are several other techs, other than myself, that have, and sell tines. Just sent one out this morning.

[Stangee]

Fair point. Of course there are other channels than eBay for the used ones. What I meant was I don't think anyone else than VV actually produce new tines - or?

[rhodesjuzz]

Thanks for your replies. I tested E6 with a tone bar clip on it, but unfortunately it made no difference. The tune of this tine don't bend while it dies. From what I've read from other people about dead tines, I think it's something else. The grommets look rather new at the outside. First I will remove the entire tonebar and have a further inspection.

Anybody out there with experiences sound wise with the new VV tines? Would really appreciate that!! 

Cheers!

[Chris Carroll]

here is a link to Vintage Vibe tines and how they sound on a Fender Rhodes-

https://youtu.be/Oo2XFoeFN1k


Here is just one example of our tone-

http://www.vintagevibe.com   just click watch- Stevie Wonder on VV Piano

[rhodesjuzz]

Yesterday evening I discovered that F#6 is having the same problem as E6 but even worse. Then I saw that these two tines have something in common. The tines are not completely in line or parallel (or how ever to put that in correct english) with the tonebar. I don't know if that's a problem with the tonebars in the higher registers because the tonebars are different/flat horizontally above the tine.

Today I will be receiving some tools (socket wrenches if that's the correct word  ) with the inch size. In most european countries -at least in The Netherlands- we use the metric system. I also need these tools to adjust the pickups. So, then I am going to adjust the pickup of D3 and trying to align the tines of E6 and F#6 with the tonebars and hope that helps.

@Chris, thanks for the youtu be videos. The tines in the Rhodes piano sound more thicker than mine (I have a darker sound), but that also may be influenced by different hammer tips (I guess  the piano in the video has square tips?!).

If it doesn't work out with the repairs I'm going for the VV tines.

Thanks and Cheers!!! 

[rhodesjuzz]

Tools are in da house 
adjusting the pickup at D3 improved the volume.

When I wanted to remove the entire tone bar at F#6 and put on a philips screw driver some miracle happened: sustain was back!! But with removing the screw driver the sustain was removed as well 

I could see that one of the grommets is old and a bit thin on one side, the other grommets looks brand new. THe alignment with the tonebar is quit okay after all.

could the combination of the thin grommet and the fact that the screw driver did some magic mean that I only have to replace the grommet?

Cheers!

[Savant]

Have you tried tone bar clips?   Check out this video.   The clips on VV are here. 

[rhodesjuzz]

Tone bar clips didn't work

A3 and C4 have tines which aren't cut off straight and have no even oscillation as an initial beat. I think I'm gonna try use a file https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HOkwMdggZb8   

A#3 also has an initial beat but that is due to the spring at the very end of the tine

E6 and F#6 still lack sustain. I saw one thinner older grommet

2 questions remain
1. Is it save to take a file to flatten the tip of the tines?
2. Would some new grommets increase the sustain given the fact that one of them is a bit thin and the trick with the screw driver dramatically increased sustain?

Thanks!!

[Savant]

As for the tine, the only reason why there would be a concern with filing down the end is since the spring is at the end.  If it goes out of tune, you may not be able to adjust for it since you can't move the spring any further down.  I had a tine like that and I just swapped it out instead of messing around with it.  (Mind you I had spare tines on hand.)

As for the grommets, if you want to test before ordering some, you could swap the grommets with the ones from key 80, and see if that makes a difference. 

[rhodesjuzz]

Hi Savant
Thanks for your tips. I'm making progress!
D3 is totally fixed allthough the spring is still dangling at the end of the tine
Filing A3 and C4 is something I will try. The concern about the tuning and enough room for the spring won't be necassary because the springs are high enough to move down quit a bit
E6 (sustain) is fixed with the good grommet of F#6 
So, that leaves F#6 with 2 bad grommets which I am going to order, but first I am going to file A3 and see what happens. All of the other tines have a nice straight tip so it has to be the cause of the strange oscillation in front of the pickup.

It's a really nice learning experience and I'm enjoying it!!

Cheers

[rhodesjuzz]

I was trying to find out what kind of tines I would have in my piano week 26 1976. The more I read, the more I got confused.

At first I was convinced they had to be the Torringtons from what I've read on fenderrhodes.com and some other sites. Then I read that the transition to Schaller/singer had already started in 1975 

Can you guys shine a light on this matter? The tines from vv are produced with the Torrington machine....

Thanks!!!!

[laberge]

Tone bar clips didn't work

A3 and C4 have tines which aren't cut off straight and have no even oscillation as an initial beat. I think I'm gonna try use a file https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HOkwMdggZb8   

A#3 also has an initial beat but that is due to the spring at the very end of the tine

E6 and F#6 still lack sustain. I saw one thinner older grommet

2 questions remain
1. Is it save to take a file to flatten the tip of the tines?
2. Would some new grommets increase the sustain given the fact that one of them is a bit thin and the trick with the screw driver dramatically increased sustain?

Thanks!!

Hey there,

The answers are:
1. Yes! As long as you have a bit of room at the end of the tine to keep it in tune, as filing it down will change the pitch slightly.
2. Are the grommets old and hard? Are some cracked? If yes, then buy a whole new set of grommets and replace them all. It's a bit of work but well worth it.

You asked earlier and yes, you should make sure the tines are perfectly lined up with the pickups as well. Simply remove the tinebar assembly, loosen the screw and move it in the location which centers it.

[rhodesjuzz]

Hey there,

The answers are:
1. Yes! As long as you have a bit of room at the end of the tine to keep it in tune, as filing it down will change the pitch slightly.
2. Are the grommets old and hard? Are some cracked? If yes, then buy a whole new set of grommets and replace them all. It's a bit of work but well worth it.

You asked earlier and yes, you should make sure the tines are perfectly lined up with the pickups as well. Simply remove the tinebar assembly, loosen the screw and move it in the location which centers it.

I have filed down the tine but it hardly improved the beat. At first I had some difficulties to get the right timbre back. I may be buying new tines, screws and grommets from VV.
This bad timbre could also be caused by the bad (indeed old and hard) grommets, though the sustain is great!

Thanx for the tip

Anybody thoughts about the Schaller tine change period?!   

[Ben Bove]

I'm not sure what you mean by the "initial beat" on the tine - is the tine oscillating to the left and right, or sort of quivering when you hit it?  I have noticed around 1976 or so, some of these tines can have a bad oscillation pattern, and what happens is that the tine moves out of the pickup field, creating a sort of "beating" sound.

On these tines, make sure that the pickup is actually moved to the left or right, to center the tine with the center of the pickup.  This way, if the tine vibrates to the left or right, it will still be amplified and not have a loss in sound output.  This might also require you to line up the tine and tonebars with each other, not so much for the sustain of the note, but for the pickup field interaction.

It's unclear exactly when the change to Schaller was made as a tine vendor.  There were no specific records kept that I was able to locate, and the best I was able to get from Fender engineers was "sometime in the mid/late seventies."  As discussed in other topics however, if it's a good tine in general then the tonal differences would be very hard to tell apart.

[rhodesjuzz]

I'm not sure what you mean by the "initial beat" on the tine - is the tine oscillating to the left and right, or sort of quivering when you hit it?  I have noticed around 1976 or so, some of these tines can have a bad oscillation pattern, and what happens is that the tine moves out of the pickup field, creating a sort of "beating" sound.

On these tines, make sure that the pickup is actually moved to the left or right, to center the tine with the center of the pickup.  This way, if the tine vibrates to the left or right, it will still be amplified and not have a loss in sound output.  This might also require you to line up the tine and tonebars with each other, not so much for the sustain of the note, but for the pickup field interaction.

It's unclear exactly when the change to Schaller was made as a tine vendor.  There were no specific records kept that I was able to locate, and the best I was able to get from Fender engineers was "sometime in the mid/late seventies."  As discussed in other topics however, if it's a good tine in general then the tonal differences would be very hard to tell apart.

Thank you Ben!

Yes I have now 3 notes (A3, A#3 and C4) with this problem and it is like you mentioned; the tine is oscillating to the left and right so I cannot adjust the pickup to avoid this. I also lined up the tonebar with the tine so that is ruled out as well   

These 3 notes have indeed a sort of "beating" sound (only the first 1 or 2 seconds) that cannot be eliminated by tuning (they are tuned by the cent). New tines are the only possibility I have left. I heard other people mixing tines from different piano's and most likely different makes on which the difference is almost not noticable. I put my luck on that including new grommets, screws and tuning springs.

I also have a D3 that is too short (tuning spring is almost falling off) and is lacking power and bark. Adjusting the pickup towards the tine gave some improvement, but I gues this tine is also nominated for replacement. It's just that my budget prevents me from replacing all the tines 

Thanks again you all! All your input helped/helps me a lot 

[Ben Bove]

Yes, notes in that range like A3 are where I've most noticed the quivering tines on initial strike.  It coincides with what I've seen from your vintage of piano, 1976-ish.

If you replaced the tines, it would take care of that.  However, if you can't replace them at this time, then experiment with pickup position:

Unscrew the pickup's screw just enough that you can pull it over to the left or right, and it will stay moved without having to hold it in place by hand.  Try different positions with the pickup facing the tine - a little off center to the left, dead center, a little off to the right.  You can get the pickup lined up pretty good to catch most if not all of the tine's range of motion.  This should be done, of course, after you're totally set on the tone for that note. 

As well, if you're having trouble with your tine not lining up in the center, one of your tonebar's screws may be bent - you can locate this one by unscrewing each of the tonebar screws slowly, one at a time, and watching if the tonebar rocks to the left and right.  Often you can get your tine to point more closely to the center if you line up the bent tonebar screw, and adjust the other to compensate for tone.

The best course of action is to get the proper length of tine for your D3, but if you don't have the ability to replace your D3 tine which is too short, then you can completely unscrew the pickup and drill a new hole for the pickup screw, slightly closer.  This will position your pickup closer to the short tine.

[pnoboy]

I have heard that grommets that are worn and too loose can cause this problem.  Can anyone confirm or deny that?

[Ben Bove]

This one issue here in particular, is a specific thing I've noticed on this vintage of piano, and oddly enough it's in a specific range.  Only speculating, it may have something to do with a mounting issue in the block or by design... perhaps these were the first design of Schaller tines that Steve Woodyard mentioned had incorrect taper dimensions, but parts were installed into pianos and shipped before they discovered the discrepancy.  When the tine is struck, it looks like the center of the tine rod actually vibrates or quivers, rather than the energy being transferred to the end of the tine in a natural swing.  It may only happen in the middle register because the length of tine brings out the phenomena, never happens visibly to the low or high tines.

I haven't had the ability to do a controlled experiment on them, if I recall I think new grommets didn't help (but perhaps they could on some), but there's always things like increased spring tension or other things to test... I just ended up replacing them on the pianos.

[rhodesjuzz]

Thanks again Ben!

Your story is very helpful, though the prospects for my tines aren't very good 
Today I have a new A3 coming in sent by ep-service dot nl. This is the tine that is made by VV (torrington-like) and I wil see/hear how it will blend in. If it's okay, I will save money for some other tines (D3 as well).

Mentioning this D3, because the spring makes the tine wider at then end, I had to raise the tine a bit. But this also implied the hammer to travel further before it hits the tine. I can feel this in the action of this key compared to the others in this area, eg I have to strike this key harder....

I also ordered some new screws and grommets for F#6 and a tone bare clip for E6 allthough E6 has a much better sustain already after I hi jacked one of the grommets from F#6.

Generally speaking: I read a lot of -sort of- bad things about Rhodes piano from about '76 where they changed the action, different flat hammer, felt glued to the hammer instead of the pedestal, new tines applied etc. But, the piano sounds like a charm 

[Ben Bove]

I understand that resources are a bit of a challenge for you to get new tines, so that's why I'll recommend these tweaks which aren't normally the standard methods for repair:

If you had to raise your short tine on the D3 in order to make it sound better, i can see how the hammer has to travel a good amount of distance to hit it.  Instead, you can bend the pickup down.  This way, instead of raising the tine to change the tone, you can keep the tine in one place and make the pickup bend lower to position.  Not normally recommended because the tonebar assembly is the adjustable item, but in your case this would make sense.

I would recommend using pairs of pliers so that you create an exact bending point in the metal tab that the pickup is mounted to.  This way, you can also bend the pickup tab back if you get new tines.  I wouldn't push directly on the pickup coil section when bending.

The '76 can be a great piano, just may take a little modifying as you pointed out

[rhodesjuzz]

I understand that resources are a bit of a challenge for you to get new tines, so that's why I'll recommend these tweaks which aren't normally the standard methods for repair:

If you had to raise your short tine on the D3 in order to make it sound better, i can see how the hammer has to travel a good amount of distance to hit it.  Instead, you can bend the pickup down.  This way, instead of raising the tine to change the tone, you can keep the tine in one place and make the pickup bend lower to position.  Not normally recommended because the tonebar assembly is the adjustable item, but in your case this would make sense.

I would recommend using pairs of pliers so that you create an exact bending point in the metal tab that the pickup is mounted to.  This way, you can also bend the pickup tab back if you get new tines.  I wouldn't push directly on the pickup coil section when bending.

The '76 can be a great piano, just may take a little modifying as you pointed out

Thanks Ben!!

D3: Fortunately it wasn't necessary to bend the pickup. Just some extra voicing was enough to make it sound quite acceptable 

F#6: installed new grommets and the sustain is good with the extra tone bar clip. But the tine makes an extraordinairy rough/clunky sound when the hammer hits the tine and volume is questionable. Don't know whether it's the tine or the pickup (hammertip is replaced 4 years ago)

E6: the extra clip was hi jacked from this tone bar. Sound is good, sustain acceptable, but could be better (needs a clip)

A3: this one has the new tine from VV. It took me quit a while to voice this one to get the right tone. But when I got there, the result is amazing. It sounds really good and you can't hear the difference compared to the other tines. Only when the lid is off, you can hear this note has no  metal like sound, but this also goes for the tines of which I think they had been replaced before. The original tines all have a metal like sound when the hammer strikes which you can only hear without the plastic lid on.

After tuning the notes I worked on, the piano sounds like an angel again!! I also have to mention my Rhodes had the miracle mod and the back check mod installed. I know a lot of people dislike the backcheck mod, but for me it's perfect. The action is very silent and it's possible to make fast runs of course that is also due to the miracle mod 

Sound wise my Rhodes is quite similar to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUD7K9Ysh4E

I will upload a testrun asap.... Thanks again 

[Ben Bove]

On the F#6, we might need to hear an audio clip on this one.  My first guess, is that if you describe it as "extraordinarily rough and clunky" then it might be that the tine is hitting the pickup.  Try backing the pickup away from the tine and see if that goes away.  Also in the very high register, sometimes you can increase the volume if you raise the tonebar assembly up by the front screw.  I would play around with the tine and pickup and see what you can find.

Make sure the hammer tip is the correct hardness and is facing the right way (if its triangular).  make sure there isn't a deep groove

[rhodesjuzz]

On the F#6, we might need to hear an audio clip on this one.  My first guess, is that if you describe it as "extraordinarily rough and clunky" then it might be that the tine is hitting the pickup.  Try backing the pickup away from the tine and see if that goes away.  Also in the very high register, sometimes you can increase the volume if you raise the tonebar assembly up by the front screw.  I would play around with the tine and pickup and see what you can find.

Make sure the hammer tip is the correct hardness and is facing the right way (if its triangular).  make sure there isn't a deep groove

Thans Ben. The tip feels and looks the same as its neighbours and it's facing the right way (I have tapered tips, probably one of the first on 76 piano's just like with the first design of quivering Schaller tines  ). I have put the tine in a more upward angle and it improved a bit. It is a pure mechanical sound. Perhaps the tine isn't flexible enough?!

Technically my Piano seems a mess from what you may read in this topic and has all the bad design changes from that year. This is what a lot of Rhodes techs around the world write (buy anything except a '76  ).
In the player camp I found a lot of happy people because of the smooth sound with a bite....
With the right mods and TLC my Rhodes sounds great and has a very light action  .

[rhodesjuzz]

On the F#6, we might need to hear an audio clip on this one.  My first guess, is that if you describe it as "extraordinarily rough and clunky" then it might be that the tine is hitting the pickup.  Try backing the pickup away from the tine and see if that goes away.  Also in the very high register, sometimes you can increase the volume if you raise the tonebar assembly up by the front screw.  I would play around with the tine and pickup and see what you can find.

Make sure the hammer tip is the correct hardness and is facing the right way (if its triangular).  make sure there isn't a deep groove

It seems like this topic is merging with another one of mine http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=9000.msg48773;topicseen#msg48773. I took a closer look at all my hammertips and it seems F#6 has a very grooved tip with a sharp edge on the right side of the groove. I did a closer look by also touching with my fingers across all the tips. Stupid as I am I didn't checked it properly    shame on me.

I guess I'll order a complete set of new tips.

Thanx

--Roy

[rhodesjuzz]

Yesterday evening I discovered that G4 is also quivering just like A#3 and C4. I already replaced A3. So that makes 4 of these bad tapered tines. Together with the hammertips, screws, clip etc it is gonna cost me a fortune. Does somebody have a donor piano left?

--Roy