Hammer tips

[rhodesjuzz]

After tuning my Rhodes and some minor repairs I started to voice the piano. In the mid range of the keyboard (G#5-F6) I noticed 10 notes of which I couldn't get rid of a bell like sound (which I don't actually like). No matter what I tried by voicing again and again and adjusting pickups, that metal/bell like sound remained. All of the other keys have a very smooth sweet sound and you can really dig in to it if you like.

Tonight I discovered that the hammers of these keys had different tips with a yellow line on the back. It also seems these tips are slightly bigger than their neighbour tips. They're not higher though.

It is a mid 1976 Rhodes (week 26) with tapered graduated hammer tips. I believe there are more different makes of tips installed but only the yellow striped ones give this bell sound. 

I have a few questions and I hope somebody can give me advice

1. Can it be true these yellow tips create a different sound or can there be another coincidence?

2. By coincidence I was already trying to find out if it is possible to replace all the tips by squared ones. I learned the squared tips all have the same height so I wondered if it is necessary to adjust the harp with the shims. I hope there is a possibility to apply the squared tips sound wise but also I wonder my piano was one of the first with the tapered design hammer tips?!

3. Which hammer tips would you recommend for this vintage of Rhodes when you keep in mind I don't prefer the bell like sound?

--Roy

[The Real MC]

Are the tips hardened?  The rubber tips harden with age.

You shouldn't need to adjust any escapement with shims with the square tips.  However changing the strike point by shimming the harp assembly may change the bell tone.

I got replacement tips from CAE.

[rhodesjuzz]

thanks!!

I don't know cae but heard some nice things from retro linear.

I was wrong about the G#5, of course I ment G#4 up to F5. I tried to upload a photo but after resizing and reformatting it still couldn't upload. I will try again asap.

Since squared tips aren't graduated I thought it would always be necessary to do some shimming.

--Roy

[rhodesjuzz]

Sorry forgotten; yellow tips are not hardened and they don't look aged to me.....

--Roy

[pianotuner steveo]

The different colors such as yellow and red do indicate a different hardness, but I do not remember off the top of my head which is which. I think there were all black, yellow, red, then rubber wrapped over a wood core. Was there a blue one also?

I would find out which one is the next softer one than the yellow, and try one there to see if it helps before ordering more.

(It should be the next tip down towards the bass after the yellows)

[rhodesjuzz]

Thanks!
The rest are all black. I've seen some schemas with colours that apply on different sections of the keys. The upper 6 keys or so should be white if all would have colours on them. The rest are all black though. My guess is somebody just installed these in the past without really knowing about the different colours and different hardnesses from different makes.

Also the height also changes along the keys, low tips at the bass notes and high tips at the treble notes. I think they call it graduated tips.

I guess I'm gonna try some tips from vv (ep-service) and hope the bell sound disappears with the right colour codes of course

Anybody tips about the squared tips and the need for shimming? Thank you  all other tips are welcome as well.....

--Roy

[pianotuner steveo]

Just remember, you want SOFTER tips to reduce the bell like tone.

What do you mean by " the need to shim"?

Do you mean raising the tips when the hammers are at rest?

It is not necessary to make the hammer tips all in a perfect line at rest. The way the key functions is more important than the way it looks. ( height, dip, escapement,stop-lock, etc.)

[rhodesjuzz]

Sorry Steve, I meant shimming the harp if I would install squared tips since they all have the same height across the keys in contrary to the graduated tips I have right now.

My crappy english won't help much either...

--Roy

[pianotuner steveo]

Haha, that's ok

Shimming the harp may be needed to set escapement, etc.

[rhodesjuzz]

Here is a photo, maybe someone recognizes these yellow tips??! These are the ones that give the bell like sound....

[pianotuner steveo]

Yes, they are common.

[rhodesjuzz]

Thank you Steve. I guess I'll just replace them by the VV tips. These yellow friends are not my taste....

--Roy

[pianotuner steveo]

Mine either. I prefer softer too.

[Ben Bove]

Those appear to be the factory tips.

The colors were from low to high - no color (black very soft bass register)
Red
Yellow
No color (very hard mid-high register) or "white" I believe they've been referred to, maybe an early iteration
wood core

You may want to try a different set of tips to replace.  However, it may not always be the tips - it may sometimes be that the harp's strikeline is a bit off, and the tines in that register are not being hit in the ideal spot.  I would suggest the hammer tips first to try replacing and see if you like them (cheap enough), and then go from there. 

Do you find it an unpleasant transition from B above middle C, to C above middle C?  Usually that's the most notable transition point.

[rhodesjuzz]

Thank you Ben. I looked up another schema that goes from Red (bass) - Green (below middle) - Yellow (middle) - White (upper middle) - Wood core (treble). This schema has a transition from C#5 to D5, but maybe this depends on the era they've applied those tips.

The transition in sound really starts with the first yellow tip (G#4), so that has to be the cause (really hope it's not anything else    )

Actually I started to notice this bell sound before, but I thought it was caused by the lack of tuning and voicing, because the entire piano sounded a bit odd. After finishing tuning and voicing, these notes really stand out with their belly sound   

I'll just buy 10 yellow an 10 white ones from VV and let my ear decide what to do

--Roy

[pianotuner steveo]

I would not buy more white or yellow tips- it sounds like those are the ones you want to remove or at least reduce the number of.... You may be wasting money by buying more.

I personally would buy SOFTER tips, such as red and green and try those.

[rhodesjuzz]

Thanks Steve, I'll give it a go and try multiple colours. I can't go wrong like that

I need another 2 tines and a nut driver for pickup adjustment as well so I will order it all at the same time.

Thank you all for the great help!!!!

--Roy

[rhodesjuzz]

I would not buy more white or yellow tips- it sounds like those are the ones you want to remove or at least reduce the number of.... You may be wasting money by buying more.

I personally would buy SOFTER tips, such as red and green and try those.

Just thinking...... softer tips (like the red or green ones) would be lower/more flat than the yellow ones, since I have graduated tips. So, installing the green ones for example would result in a different escapement/striking point at the tine, won't you think?

--Roy

[pianotuner steveo]

It would be easy to compensate for. The goal is to get the softer tone that you want.
again, I do not recommend buying more of the harder tips- only the softer...

[rhodesjuzz]

It would be easy to compensate for

Thanks again Steveo

Have you got a tip how to compensate a possible difference in height?

--Roy

[David Aubke]

Wholesale changes to escapement can be made by adding or removing shims from one or both harp supports. But you'll probably want to adjust individual notes which is done using the tone bar mounting screws.
http://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/ch4.html#4-3

[rhodesjuzz]

Thank you David. I just read this http://chicagoelectricpiano.com/tag/mark-ii/
Very interesting so squared tips were used til mid 76 and my rhodes happens to be a mid 76 (week 26).
I still doubt whether i should install those. A lot of people state it is not necessary to adjust shimming of the harp but other -like chicagoep- claim the height of the tips do influence the striking line and several adjustments are needed..... Btw I already have extra shimming and the miracle mod


I read other topics here and threads from other sites but there seem to be a lot of confusion and disagreements about this point.

Nevertheless, this forum (and that means the help and tips of you guys) is worth a fortune

Anyway, I will try new tapered tips first. Seems the yellow striped tips that causes the belly sound are the only ones that came out of the factory as original and may be hardened after all just like The real MC mentioned before. The other ones seem to be replaced over the years.

--Roy

[rhodesjuzz]

Are the tips hardened?  The rubber tips harden with age.

You shouldn't need to adjust any escapement with shims with the square tips.  However changing the strike point by shimming the harp assembly may change the bell tone.

I got replacement tips from CAE.

How do you like your CAE tips? What sound do they have?

--Roy