What action regulation can I do to obviate the need for backchecks?

[cactusleaf]

So I've been toying with the idea of installing VV backchecks, because hey, why not.

But I'll tell you why not: I'm a purist, and I don't think I really want to screw things into the keys and risk changing the feel that I've gotten so used to. I like it the way it was designed!

So the question is: what sorts of regulation work should I do to specifically quiet the action and naturally reduce key bounce? I've read it discussed here before, where people swear that regulation is the real cure for bouncing keys, but couldn't find anywhere where someone mentioned specific adjustments. Besides getting the keys re-bushed, I can't really picture how action regulation would actually help with bounce, but I'm inclined to believe it. Someone enlighten me!

[pnoboy]

I know of no way to stop hammer bounce except to use backchecks.  OTOH, I haven't noticed ill effects from the bounce.

[pianotuner steveo]

Other than following setup/ regulation procedures perfectly, I don't know what one magic adjustment needs to be done to prevent bounce. ( if there even is one step that stops it) It likely could be proper bridle strap adjustment combined with proper key height and dip. Proper hammer cam or pedestal felt could be a factor also.

Having said that, it is possible. Not every Rhodes has bounce. Mine does not. I do not see how rebushing keys could affect bounce.

[bourniplus]

As for your question, my answer is I don't know...
IMHO, backchecks, if the job is well done, are a desirable mod. They can reduce bounce and improve dampening especially on hard staccatto blows. Sometime ago I bought a kit from VV intending to install it on my MkV, which I use on gigs regularly. I tried one backcheck on one key; the backcheck required some modification (bending) to work properly on my MkV. That key bounces less than the others. If the original keys bounce about three times (say, one big bounce, one medium, and one small bounce), the backchecked one bounces about twice (one medium and one small bounce).
However I never found the motivation to do the rest (and find a way to bend them properly so the job looks good) and in the meantime I got myself a MkI, so I might keep the backchecks for the MkI. If anyone has ever installed the kit on a MkV I'd sure like to hear about it.
Also, I would really like to see a video of a Rhodes, without backchecks, that does NOT bounce.

[Ben Bove]

In my opinion, the bounce cannot be alleviated without an add-on or modification.  It is an essential part of any quality piano action design, and was left out of the Rhodes - whether Fender deemed it "wasn't that bad" without it to save on production cost, or more often they complained things were "too precise to regulate" like the pedestal bump, meaning they were looking at reducing the labor cost of having to really dial in the piano actions precisely.  The Rhodes action does a good job with very minimal parts, it's very cost-effective.

If you look at any piano action design, which has been developed and refined over hundreds of years, a backcheck is an essential piece in each one.  Even any google image I can immediately pull up of "piano action" contains a backcheck as part of the diagram.

So, if the action bounce bothers you enough to want to do something about it, I wouldn't be concerned about being a purist with it - if anything, all Rhodes should have had a backcheck implemented into the design just like any other piano.  If Fender engineers were allowed to design the best quality action, it probably would have been included, so in effect you would actually be improving the design. 

The only possible way I could see to reduce the hammer bounce without backcheck, is to reduce the impact of the key falling to rest, or the hammer's contact with the key pedestal where energy is transferred to the hammer.  So, the strip of felt in the back of the Rhodes where the keys fall down on in the back on release, that could be more shock-absorbing or cushy which would reduce the key bouncing off the action frame.  If it were hard, then the keys would rebound more, creating a bit of bounce.

I haven't experimented with them, but a piece of felt as the pedestal bump might also reduce a bit of energy transfer.  If the hammer falls to rest and impacts felt over a hard plastic bump (or the integrated wood design), the energy transfer may be higher than a more shock-absorbing or flexing bump of some kind.  This would have to be an action where the hammer is on the bump at key rest.  It may also make the action a bit heavier as the bump may flex on pushing the keys depending on the stiffness of the felt.

[Fred]

Another interesting point worthy of mention here is that in an acoustic piano, the backcheck alleviates hammer bounce while the key is depressed, not upon key release as intended in a Rhodes "modification".

[rhodesjuzz]

I have the backcheck mod installed in my 76 Rhodes. Works great hardly any bounce and almost never needed to adjust them over the years. Fred is right this backcheck is different from an acoustic piano.

--Roy

[pianotuner steveo]

Right. Acoustic piano back checks prevent the hammer from bouncing while the key is held down. After re-reading, I noticed that cactus leaf is asking how to reduce key bounce... Maybe adding key weighs to the back if the key will help with this specific situation.

[LDS]

If you ask me, key bounce in a rhodes is entirely the result of hammer movement. It has to do with the way the spring loaded damper arm is (literally) tied to the hammer. When the hammer is striking the tines, the spring tension in the damper wants to help gravity throw the hammer back against the key pedestal. If the hammer bounces off the key pedestal, the key will bounce with it. The backcheck mod is designed to stop the hammer from bouncing.

[pianotuner steveo]

A simple test for this would be to hold a few hammers up with your hand, the press the corresponding keys with the other and see if the keys themselves are bouncing without any influence from the hammers.

[Ben Bove]

A good idea on the weights Steveo, however I just came across one that had the idea installed, and it definitely affected the initial impact weight of pushing the keys down.  Felt quite heavy to play.

[pianotuner steveo]

Ben, it depends on where the weights are installed. The further back on the key, the lighter they feel. If they are installed near the balance rail, (but still behind it) they can make it feel heavier. Of course on a Rhodes, you need to be sure the bottom of the hammer doesn't hit the weight, so placement can be trickier than on a Wurlitzer.

[pnoboy]

I tried weights on my Rhodes.  It made the action feel heavy, and didn't do much at all to stop the bounciness.

[pianotuner steveo]

As I said above, the location on the key stick where you put the weights makes a huge difference. The further back in the key, the less it makes it heavier. I am talking about " jiffy" key weights. They attach with two screws.

[LDS]

As I said above, the location on the key stick where you put the weights makes a huge difference. The further back in the key, the less it makes it heavier. I am talking about " jiffy" key weights. They attach with two screws.

Wouldn't that actually make them heavier?

The fulcrum point on the rhodes is intentionally further towards the back of the key to counteract the weight of the hammers. That is why when you lift the hammers by hand off the pedestals, the "ivories" will dip. You shouldn't actually be able to play any of the notes when you lift the hammers. By placing even more weight at the back of the keys near the key pedestals, you are actually making the keys even heavier to play because you need to lift more weight with each key press.

Putting weights under the key caps will make the notes lighter, but you also risk a sloppier action as well because the hammers are the only things keeping the keys raised.

[pianotuner steveo]

No, that is backwards.

It technically makes the key weigh more,yes, but it feels lighter when you press it down if the weight is further back.
I also mean weight placement as in regards to where on the back side of the key, meaning behind the balance rail, you put the weight.

It is not possible or logical to put weights under the keytops. (or logical in front of the balance rail) That would make them feel heavier by reducing the dip and making the keys feel "choked" . It would also mess up the hammer stroke and other things.

Whether an action feels heavy or light is sometimes an illusion changed by key dip. More key dip feels lighter, less key dip feels heavier.

All piano keys will dip if the hammer or whippen is lifted off of the pedestal or capstan. That is normal in acoustic pianos as well as ep's.


But we are getting off topic...

[pnoboy]

No, that is backwards.

It technically makes the key weigh more,yes, but it feels lighter when you press it down if the weight is further back.
I also mean weight placement as in regards to where on the back side of the key, meaning behind the balance rail, you put the weight.

It is not possible or logical to put weights under the keytops. (or logical in front of the balance rail) That would make them feel heavier by reducing the dip and making the keys feel "choked" . It would also mess up the hammer stroke and other things.

Whether an action feels heavy or light is sometimes an illusion changed by key dip. More key dip feels lighter, less key dip feels heavier.

All piano keys will dip if the hammer or whippen is lifted off of the pedestal or capstan. That is normal in acoustic pianos as well as ep's.


But we are getting off topic...

'
There's got to be some semantic issue here, because for a given weight, the further back it is placed from the fulcrum, the more it will weight the key and the heavier the action will be--this in not disputable.   This principal is used extensively in grand-piano actions in which the action is too heavy unless weights are added to the front of the keys.  I have done extensive work with acoustic pianos, so I have experienced this effect.  Virtually all grand pianos have weights embedded in the front portion of the key stick, except for the highest notes, where, because the hammers are lighter there, either no weight or some weights in the back portion of the key stick are necessary.

Perhaps you are being confused by acoustic grand pianos where weights are placed in front of the fulcrum.  In that case, of course, the further back, or more precisely, the closer to the fulcrum the weights are, the heavier the action will feel.  I will note that in some upright pianos, the action ends up being too light and weights are placed in the rear portion of the key sticks, behind the fulcrum.

[pianotuner steveo]

But we are not talking about grand piano actions here.

Pnoboy, are you a trained piano tech? Do you do this work every day?

Yes, some key sticks have the round weights inside towards the fronts, but again, those are not Rhodes pianos. There is no way to do this easily in a Rhodes.

What I am saying is that placing weights towards the back of the keys will help keep the height and dip of the keys more consistent making them have a snappier response and giving your hands the illusion that the action is lighter. Technically they make them heavier, yes, but the  ILLUSION  is that the action is more responsive and easier to play. It also reduces/eliminates sluggish keys in most cases.

I've never added key weights to a grand action in this manner, and likely never will. I've done it to spinets,uprights, and EP's.(Mostly Wurlitzers) It's helped in all cases.

[pnoboy]

I added weights to the back of several of the keys in my Rhodes--in a temporary manner--to test whether or not weighting the keys would alleviate the bounciness.  I discovered 2 things--the bounciness was not better and the action felt much heavier.  And, yes, I am a competent piano technician although that is not my career.

[pianotuner steveo]

To be fair, I do not remember if I have ever tried adding weights on a Rhodes, but like I said, it worked well on Wurlitzers, spinets, etc.  Of course their actions are super light to begin with (in most cases)

The bouncing is likely related to the bridle strap on the damper then. I wish that I had a way to take video and post it here. My Rhodes doesn't have the bounce.

[siderealxxx]

Interesting thread. I'm still geting used to my MK1 action and actually the key bounce seems pretty strong to me (perhaps more than other Rhodes I've played). It is a mid-'74 though. Weights had crossed my mind too but its already heavy enough (no miracle mod... Yet). The VV backcheck mod looks interesting but I don't think I could do it to my otherwise perfect condition instrument. Maybe if I had another later model. Something to live with and get used to?!