Rhodes purchase in the UK

[Harrygriffiths211]

Hi there, new to the forum and I'm just after some advice

I've used Rhodes emulators for the last two years and although they are fun, I'm after the real thing now. I'd be looking to spend around 1000 GBP. A few things I wanted to ask, I'm looking to get a stage model and I'm wondering if an amp is 100 percent necessary? I was thinking of running the signal into my computer and then through Logic Pro X. I thought this could possibly be desirable as I would be able to utilize my monitor speakers and get a decent representation of the low end produced by the instrument. So if I was intending to do this would I need some kind of pre amp? Or would running the signal through a guitar amp then using the headphone out be best for this?

The next thing I want to know is would 1000 GBP be considered an amount capable of getting a decent Rhodes? I've repaired bikes for years in  a workshop and currently have access to two work areas. (I know these are two completely different animals) but I'm not afraid of learning how something works then attempting to carry out repairs myself. Gotta start somewhere I suppose. Some Pianos I've looked at have been a few hundred pounds below my price point but need some pickups either replacing or rewiring, is this a task that should be avoided?

I'm aware of some of the things to check for with looking at pianos to purchase e.g. signs the piano was stored in a damp area, corrosion on tines/tone bars, damage to the tolex indicating the piano hasn't been taken care of. However one slightly stressful element is I am living in Swansea, most of the Pianos I see for sale are around London so if I'm making that journey I'm going to be hoping to make a purchase, so I'm basically trying to work out, if im going to be spending around 1k, is there a high chance of the piano being in bad shape?

Sorry if this is badly written/constructed, but I'm really excited about the prospect of owning a Rhodes and wish to go about it in a sensible manner lol. Thanks for reading.

Just to clarify I've read the buyers guide and that was very handy, I've been referring to it when looking at Pianos on ebay, out of interest would something of this nature be worth looking at?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fender-Rhodes-Mk1-Stage-Piano-/172147809822?hash=item2814cf1e1e:g:9FQAAOSw9uFW9sn1

I guess it could be recommended to ask for some close up photos of tines etc before committing to travelling to check it out?

I will be looking to purchase in a little under a month so I have some time to research.

[Ben Bove]

You may not need a separate amp if you're specifically using it for computer recording - however yes, you'll either need a preamp in the signal chain, or a preamp plug-in on the digital side to get the best sound.  Much like plugging in an electric guitar line-in to a board, the guitar will sound completely dead.  Your guitar amp should do a good job with the Rhodes.

I can't comment on the UK buying area, but pickups are relatively easy to replace if you are just buying a few replacements.  As mentioned in other threads, be cautious of Mark II pianos with a lot of pickups dead - there's a corrosion problem that can occur on these models.

If it's a far drive, you can always ask for a video from the seller perhaps.  You could probably get some advice on here as well from a video

[siderealxxx]

I've just been through the same process as you but actually bought a Rhodes last week (in south west UK also).

Firstly regarding the amp, Logic has reasonable amp sims on a superficial level, but to be honest they're not even close to the real thing when you compare them side by side (I'm a guitarist). If you don't have the budget there may be (tube based?) pre-amps that will suffice, but at the least get yourself a DI box with instrument level gain boost. People do actually use raw Rhodes DI'd in pro recordings so it's not out of the question, it certainly sounds better than a guitar does without an amp.

From all my looking lately (and I did a lot!) £1000 could get you a reasonable Rhodes, but you'll have to wait and make very careful decisions. The market here seems to be a mess, I've seen reasonable Rhodes sell for £750 and crap ones sell for £1,200. Most people here don't seem to know what they're doing. Most sellers don't even know what year their model was made let alone anything useful.

Whilst appearance and condition can tell you a lot about how well a Rhodes has been looked after, it doesn't tell you anything about how it plays or functions mechanically/electronically. Here again, you will often be met with either "it plays fine to me" or "I don't know it hasn't been touched for 5/10/20 years". None of which are ideal! The one you listed is a case in point, the fact it hasn't been touched and is in slightly rough condition internally means it will probably need a fair bit of work.

If you want to undertake this yourself, be prepared to spend a lot of time and still need a decent budget (could be anything from £100 to £400 on something like that, depends how far you want to go).

Because like you I couldn't get to London to try things out, I spoke to some of the restoration guys around the UK and eventually found the perfect piano for me. I paid more for it, but it was worth it and avoided a lot of the hassle. It all depends how much time you're willing to wait and/or invest in the instrument at the end of the day.

[Harrygriffiths211]

Cheers for the advice guys. Interesting to hear that about the UK market, could your reccomend anyone that sells on refurbished Rhodes' in the UK? I know theres Fender Rhodes UK who's based out of London, most of his stage pianos seem to be around the 1400 mark which is a little out of budget. Although I can see why it would be worth the extra coin to get something that had been properly checked over etc.

Sidreal, could you reccomend a decent DI box? and would I nead a 1/4 inch cable to xlr for something like that? I did wonder wether I'd be able to buy a guitar amp and just use the headphone output on that to take the signal to my computer.

[squarebubble]

Cheers for the advice guys. Interesting to hear that about the UK market, could your reccomend anyone that sells on refurbished Rhodes' in the UK? I know theres Fender Rhodes UK who's based out of London, most of his stage pianos seem to be around the 1400 mark which is a little out of budget. Although I can see why it would be worth the extra coin to get something that had been properly checked over etc.

I think you'll find the £1400 price is because of the eBay and PayPal fees. If you approach them directly with cash, I'm sure you'll get a much better deal.

[Harrygriffiths211]

Thanks, I've just enquired as to wether the price would be negotiable if the transaction was carried out in person with cash. It would give me a lot more piece of mind knowing I was buying it from somone who's got lots of experience with them as opposed to the 'only used once in the last 25 years' kind of seller!

[siderealxxx]

Cheers for the advice guys. Interesting to hear that about the UK market, could your reccomend anyone that sells on refurbished Rhodes' in the UK? I know theres Fender Rhodes UK who's based out of London, most of his stage pianos seem to be around the 1400 mark which is a little out of budget. Although I can see why it would be worth the extra coin to get something that had been properly checked over etc.

Sidreal, could you reccomend a decent DI box? and would I nead a 1/4 inch cable to xlr for something like that? I did wonder wether I'd be able to buy a guitar amp and just use the headphone output on that to take the signal to my computer.

Also try this guy, he may be able to help out (though collection will be a factor): http://www.huwrees.info/rhodesrepair/

Re. DI box, depends on your interface. If you have an instrument level gain control input you don't technically need one (but it's less preferable), just jack to jack and set the gain level.

Preferable is to use one of these http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/classic_DI.htm (as good as the Radials at a fraction of the price) into a decent preamp or mic input on your interface with a jack-to-jack one end and microphone cable the other.

[Harrygriffiths211]

Thanks for the replies guys, after lots of searching, looks like I'm getting a 1978 mk1 73 from doug at klassic keys, very excited to say the least. Referring to the Di box, will that amplify the signal at all? I'm still not sure wether I'd be better off running the rhodes through a guitar amp then using the headphone output to send the signal to my computer. Would this method effect the signal of the rhodes or would it be okay? I'm wanting to get the signal to my computer so it can go through my amp to my monitor reference speakers as I thought this would give the best representation of the actual sound.

Any help appreciated, thanks.

[siderealxxx]

What audio interface do you have for your computer? And what guitar amp, if any?

Based on these factors I can advise you on getting the best results...

[pnoboy]

I haven't tried it, but I would guess that the Rhodes has sufficient output to be connected the mic input of your sound card.  One issue with using your computer is frequency-response equalization.  The chances that the Rhodes will sound its best without going through a graphic equalizer or some other kind of tone controls seems remote.  All DAWs have these controls, but I don't know if any of them work in real time.  The other issue is the input impedance of the sound card's inputs.  Many of them are probably too low.

[siderealxxx]

Thanks for the replies guys, after lots of searching, looks like I'm getting a 1978 mk1 73 from doug at klassic keys, very excited to say the least. Referring to the Di box, will that amplify the signal at all? I'm still not sure wether I'd be better off running the rhodes through a guitar amp then using the headphone output to send the signal to my computer. Would this method effect the signal of the rhodes or would it be okay? I'm wanting to get the signal to my computer so it can go through my amp to my monitor reference speakers as I thought this would give the best representation of the actual sound.

Any help appreciated, thanks.

Did you get your piano?

For reference, your options for recording or monitoring are:

- DI box into mic input with gain on audio interface
- Preamp with gain into line input on audio interface
- Directly plug into gain controlled 'instrument/guitar level' input on audio interface
- Or via a guitar amp miked up (don't use headphone outs they sound terrible)

There is no need for pre-EQ as suggested, but any tonal shaping can take place in the DAW. You can then use amp sims if required. There are a ton of ways of doing this depending on your wants/needs but this is an outline.

[rhodesjuzz]

Is it also possible to take the output from a suitcase box into the line input on an audio interface (of course with 2 inputs available)?

--Roy

[Harrygriffiths211]

Piano is arriving in 4 days, cant wait. Sid, how come you say headphone outputs are so bad? The company I'm buying it off (Klassic Keys) are also selling me a Peavey keyboard amp. Apparently this has a patch out facility, a stereo socket out, this is supposedly pre eq, not really sure whether I should want it to be pre eq or post. I'll be happy enough to use this amp to practice but if its outputs aren't ideal I'll look into getting a DI box or pre amp.

[siderealxxx]

I say this because an amp and the *speaker* form the character of the tone. The ideal situation is a suitcase or Fender Twin or keyboard/guitar amp, make it sound great in the room, then mic it up.

A Rhodes is an electric instrument just like a guitar so the character and your tone comes from how you shape it in the room you're playing. Equally Guitarists ALWAYS mic up their cabs, never take an output because you're bypassing the speaker... A very important stage!

I used to take an output from my Marshall amp when I didn't have the cabinet and it sounded AWFUL. Seriously awful. so now you need a mic too :-) if you're happy with the sound the Peacy gives you. It should be ok but I don't know the amp.

[Harrygriffiths211]

Ah I understand what your saying now!

Lots of things to buy, so if I buy a mic, is that going to need to go into a pre amp or DI box?

Any mic recommendations?

[siderealxxx]

A lot of this depends on what Audio Interface you have (if any)? And if you like the sound the amp is giving you. Remember probably at least 25% of the tone of your Rhodes is shaped by the amp. Depends what you're trying to do as well.

[Harrygriffiths211]

I'd be wanting to send the signal into Logic Pro X through the audio input on my iMac, its a 2009 model. But yeah I understand now that you might experience a lifeless sound if you ran the signal pre eq direct from the amp or direct from a DI box. So micing up probably be the best option (If I like the sound the amp makes, like you said.)

[siderealxxx]

Ok fair enough, then you get into studio requirements!

You won't be able to connect a reasonable mic directly to an iMac as it only has a mini-jack input. You will need a mic pre-amp and audio interface. You can buy these combined (with other useful features) very cheaply these days but if you're new to this stuff there's a learning curve.

Something like this (there are tons of other options): http://www.dv247.com/computer-hardware/presonus-audiobox-usb-portable-2x2-usb-recording-system--48498

Standard cheap guitar amp mic is a Sure SM57: http://www.dv247.com/microphones/shure-sm57-vocal-instrument-microphone--13247

And obviously an XLR cable and mic stand. This combo would get you low-pro level results if the amp sounds good. Or else you could DI the signal into the interface and use Logics amp sims (after you recorded).

Horses for courses really. I'd see how the piano is sounding when you get it and decide what you want to achieve. Something like the above would give you tons of options (including MIDI etc) but you might be going down a road you don't want to be down.