What should I replace? -- With details and pics

[Worlddrum13]

Hello all. Im having questions regarding what should be replaced on my 77 mk1 73. i Mentioned this Rhodes briefly in another post but i figured id give some details as i have some time, tasty beer, and wife and kids are in bed.  ill start with some back story..




This showed up on  my local Craigslist about two weeks ago (the ad is still up). ive been in the market for an affordable rhodes for a while now and i thought this may be a good opportunity. Now this ad has red flags all over it. if you look at the pic, theres clearly at least on stuck key. the ad sounds like its written by an elementary school kid. also, as a side note, if you are familiar with New Hampshire towns you would know that Franklin is the armpit of the state. nothing good comes out of frankin. i went on  a whim and called the number that was listed. talked to the girlfriend of the owner who knew little about it but she did tell me its missing the sustain pedal but has the legs, which was my first question. i set up a time later that day to go look at it. I met with the owner who was in his late 20's. he wasnt really a musician though he did have a couple cheap acoustic guitars and a casitone. he told me he got it from his uncle in hopes of using it and he never did. he lost his job and was looking for some quick cash. Fortunately i did a bit of research on what a replacement sustain pedal would cost, so i had that figure in my head. being the lowballer that i am, i offered 250. we settled on $300. not too bad.

i got it home and begun cleaning it up as it was pretty gross. it smelled like cigarettes and who knows what. it was also dirty all over. i quickly noted some faults that were not mentioned or observed when we initally looked at it. one of the leg flanges was detatched and bent (still on one of the legs) and it did not have cross bars



i set it up on a couple of my old sansui speakers in the basement. this was to let it air out as it smelled pretty bad. i started to play in and just mess with it a bit. both knobs were real scratch but some good ol peavey funk out did the trick. it didnt play well and many notes were out of tune. i started taking it apart, cleaning and easing the keys with teflon lube. i vacuumed out all kinds of mouse poop and miscellaneous debris. i even came accross an old mud wasp nest






i took each tine and tonebar off and cleaned them. some surface rust was forming on the tines but it could have been worse



i re-installed all the tonebars and tines and set the escapement even across the board using the tone generator as a guide. next thing i did was tuned the whole piano. i wanted to be able to play it when it was in tune. i wanted to be able to test it while it was in tune, going forward. i did the stretch tuning across the board



So next i ordered parts from Vintage Vibe. i ordered their sustain pedal, crossbars, knob, some miscellaneous hardware. i was able to bend the leg flange back strait and got some new T-nuts and screws. i put everything together and finished cleaning up the tolex (which took alot of windex and elbow grease).

this is how it looks and is set up now






So thats where i am today. So now back to the question of "what should i be replacing?". now i will say that ive already ordered the "Full refurb kit", more key leveling shims, a sustain rod thingy that i didnt know i was missing, and a full set of bridle staps all from vintage vibe. I honestly knew nothing about the inner workings of these pianos until 2 weeks ago when i bought this so im not really sure what things "should" look like. i understand that hammer tips and damper felts should be replaced if theres grooves or a lot of noticable wear. my tips and damper felts dont look bad in comparison to examples found on the internet of "bad" felts or tips. Im at the point where i feel i should just replace everything to save having to do it not far down the road.
These are my Tips




Felts..



These felts on the hammers will be relocated to the pedestal when i do the bump mod


Missing sustain dowel ( i guess )


Date



If this was your piano, what would you do to it?

thanks for reading my story. this forum has been very helpful so far.

Joel

[Alan Lenhoff]

>>Im at the point where i feel i should just replace everything to save having to do it not far down the road. >>

I would discourage you from that kind of plan. Why replace vintage parts that still work well -- and replace them with modern substitutes that often vary considerably in quality and function?  If your piano has original grommets, you'll want to replace them.  But why would you replace all the bridle straps?  Or the hammer tips and damper felts if they are still functioning well? You need to learn what parts need replacing, rather than replacing everything you see.

Last year, I bought a 1974 Stage. I replaced the grommets and screws.  (The Retrolinear kit worked wonderfully.) Those were the only action parts that needed to be changed.  I reversed a few of the original cube-shaped hammer tips that were grooved, to get a "new" striking surface.  The damper felts and pedestal felts were fine.  I focused on cleaning, lubing, re-setting the escapement and strikeline, voicing, and adjusting some dampers.  And when I was done, it didn't need a bump mod, either.  (The piano has a very nice feel, and  great dynamic range.)  Your piano may need more work, but I would resist the urge to blindly replace everything just because it's old.

Alan

[Tim W]

Thank you Alan, you are right on the money.

There is no reason to switch out properly functioning vintage parts- the tips and dampers are part of the soul of the piano's sound. 

This piano is actually in decent shape- much better than many of the pianos that we see come into our shop!  The hammertips are barely worn.  The dampers appear to be in good enough shape to remain serviceable for a long time, with proper adjustment. 

Granted, there are times when things need replacement, but certainly not in this case.

Put in a new set of grommets and screws, and rather than spend $$ and time on parts that don't need to be replaced (and that may possibly change the sound of your piano), take your piano to a skilled tech have it tuned, voiced, and set up to play optimally.  Any good Rhodes tech will know that the original parts in this piano are in very good shape and will NOT try to sell you new parts that aren't needed.   If they do, find another tech!

Tim
retrolinear.com

[Tim Hodges]

Totally agree, it looks to be in an excellent state, looks like it's barely been played.

Looks like you just need a new grommet and screw set and 1 replacement sustain dowel then you'll be good to go.

[Worlddrum13]

Thanks the advice, Alan. I completely understand the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" concept. I guess my question is more; How do I tell when these parts need to be replaced? And from the pictures, so you see any reason to replace them. I'm not sure what they should look like or feel like as this is my first rhodes. To me, the piano doesn't sound of play great. There's some notes that are better than others, for sure, but not a lot of consistency. I've already done my best at voicing. All tunes are set just above the crest of the pickup, pickups are set all around 1/16th from the tine. When adjusting certain timbers, I just can't get it to the tone I want in many keys. The worst offenders are from E just above middle C and up about an octave. There's a lot of variables that can effect the tone, which in certainly learning, but I wanted to eliminate some of the variables with new parts.

As far as the bridle straps, I have 3 that are ripped. I also seem to have a little more slack than what it should have. Given the year of my piano, I have to take the hammers off in groups of 12. So to do the 3 broken straps, i need to pull 2 sets of 12 out. I will also need to pull all the hammers to remove the felt. I figured it woulnt be too much extra work to simply replace all the straps while I have it all apart. Not to mention is cost effective just to buy a bulk bag of them.

Thanks again for any advice. I'm (obviously) new to all of this

Joel

[Tim Hodges]

Certainly replacing the rubber grommets will definitely help to improve the consistency and voicing of your notes.

[Worlddrum13]

Also thanks for the other replies I had while I was writing that I'll start with the screws and grommets and go from there. I did find a handful of bent ones while I was reseting the escapment. Unfortunately I haven't found anyone who knows what they are doing with these in my area. I have a couple good leads in the Boston area if i get desperate. I had really hoped to do everything I could on my own, not so much for money reasons, but just learning how to.

Joel

[pianotuner steveo]

Another vote for grommets, yes....bridle straps, no, not unless they break. Very big PITA to replace these.

[Worlddrum13]

I have a quick question, I started to level the keys last night with success so far. I'm assuming the key shims are supposed to be under the felts, correct? For both the front rail and balance(?) rail?

Joel

[pianotuner steveo]

Yes, the paper and cardboard shims are supposed to go under the felts. It's ok to place them on top while leveling, but then when you have the height correct, flip them over., so the felt is on top. Rhodes factory workers left the paper on top to speed up production. This is a no no because the keys will eventually tear the paper shims and they can fall off the stack.

[Worlddrum13]

Great thanks. I'll have more miscellaneous questions over the next week or so, I appreciate all the help

[Ben Bove]

As Tim mentioned, this piano is a low-hours played piano, and a great find for $300.  Great amount of work you put in, looks very nice.

How are the no-color tips in the mid-high register, the register you're complaining about, ranging from the B above Middle C until you hit the woodcore tips?  They may be just fine, but weren't pictured and sometimes these can be the first to develop grooves as they are harder in a higher traffic area.  If there are grooves, they can catch the tine and make improper attacks rather than a softer tip.

Noticing the surface rust on the tines, and a wasp's nest, this piano was either stored in a very open garage or outside.  With exposure to the elements and sticking keys, the thing to watch is the swelling of the wood keys and the rubbing of the front guide pins.  How did you rectify the sticking keys?  Usually, the wood swells in the key, and it reduces the circumference of the hole in the front of the key for the guide pins to insert, making the keys rub as you depress them.  You may need to ease bushings on the keys that sound like they're "dragging" as you push them down. 

To see how the key bushings are fairing, wiggle individual keys left to right, or lightly place your fingers on the keys without pushing them down, and wiggle them left to right, seeing how much play there is in the keys.  Hold the keys down, and wiggle them left to right as well.  They should have the smallest amount of movement - not nearly colliding into neighboring keys, and not rock solid that they can't be moved.  Another test that helps identify some "soon to be problematic sticking keys," is to hold the sustain pedal down, and push all the keys down.  By removing the tension of the bridle strap and arm with your sustain pedal, you may see keys staying down when they shouldn't.

[Worlddrum13]

I used a wd40 brand Teflon based dry lube spray for the pins. After I vacuumed out all the debris and lubed everything, I just worked the keys momentarily and the seemed fine. I remember watching a VV video where he mentioned that you should be able to lift all the hammers by hand and the key should drop by itself. They all do after my cleaning procedure. I'll take a look at the play in the keys when I get home. I did look into this already but not in detail as I asssumed there was other issues as stake. The tips look pretty consistent all across. Very minimal grooves overall. Are those original tips for that year? A non-credible source said that that year would have had different tips, but didn't go into detail.

Joel

[Ben Bove]

Sounds like you're luckily in the clear then!  Those tips would be era-correct originals for 1977.  The key-wiggle then would only be to your liking - if you play the piano and it feels "sloppy."

[rhodesjuzz]

If they look and sound good, don't replace the hammer tips. Don't judge them by the looks alone. My piano had the same yellow original tips as yours and they looked pretty good just as yours. The rubber hardened through the years though.  I replaced them (and the rest up to the treble side including the woodcore tips) with graduated vv tips. In my case it improved the sound, but only do this if really necessary.

--Roy

[4kinga]

Hah!
I almost pulled the trigger on that! (I'm only about 40 minutes south west)
Good luck with it.  Also, the harder tip may give you a dyno-type sound.  I'd say play them for a bit and see what you think/hear.

[Worlddrum13]

Thanks for all the advice. I decided I'm not going to do the hammer tips right now. They really don't look too bad. I'll save all that glue scraping for another time. I am doing to the screws/grommets and the damper felts. I found a couple feltsthats were kind of falling apart at the low end. Seeing as I already have a new set, I decided to do them all. I'm in the process of replacing the screws and grommets right now. Got 3/4 the way done when the drill died. I'll continue tomorrow night.

4kinga, im surprised it was still available when I called about it after a couple days. They said they had someone who was supposed to come look at it the next day but they wanted to get rid of it so I snagged it before..