Author Topic: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base  (Read 1457 times)

Offline beginnersluke

  • Sparkletop
  • ***
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
As I stated in another post, I am restoring a 206A, but due to the cosmetic condition, I am also customizing and changing it around a bit.

One idea that I would really like to pursue is remounting the base speakers to they face out from the back of the piano (i.e. toward the audience). I would also mount speakers in the piano itself, both for playing the piano when set against the wall (as it will often be), and to make it easier for the player to hear herself while using the audience oriented speakers. (Perhaps I'd include a pot to control the balance when both front and back speakers are on.)

Has anyone here done this sort of conversion? Is there anything I should look out for? It seems fairly simple:

1. Replace the current speaker board with a solid board.
2. Cut matching holes in rear wall of the base.
3. Mount and wire in the speakers.

(If the 4 speakers were wired in a series-parallel configuration the impedance at the amp will always be the same).

Is there some reason I'm missing that this is not a good idea? To me it seems like it would be great.

Thanks,

Luke

Offline pianotuner steveo

  • MIDI Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 3288
  • A keyboard player in love with vintage guitars!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2016, 05:00:59 PM »
One reason why I wouldn't do it is because it's a low powered amp- not sure how efficiently it would drive 4 speakers. You could have a switch to go back and forth between front and rear. A balance control doesn't really sound like a good idea to me. I'm sure others will chime in with their opinions...
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline cinnanon

  • Mark I
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2016, 05:01:59 PM »
If you wire all speakers in parallel that will give you 3.3 ohms (16x16x11x11).  The schematics show the amp can handle anywhere from 5.5 ohms to 8 ohms.  I can't tell you if it's safe to wire it your way though. I'm not sure how to wire a pot to control the balance either.  As far as four speakers, the 214 and 203 have 4 x 22.5 ohm speakers. 

Offline retro-mike

  • Vendor
  • Fiesta Red
  • *****
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
    • Retrolinear.com
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2016, 12:42:51 PM »
Since its mono why not just mount one speaker forward (audience) and one speaker toward the player?
A speaker kill switch w/ Line out is useful too for recording.
Also you might need to deaden/dampen the cabinet so it doesn't oscillate the piano.

And lastly- a tad of shameless self promotion, One of our amp boards would be a nice addition :D





Offline beginnersluke

  • Sparkletop
  • ***
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2016, 01:33:50 PM »
Since its mono why not just mount one speaker forward (audience) and one speaker toward the player?
Since its mono why not just mount one speaker forward (audience) and one speaker toward the player?[/quote]

I've definitely thought about this -- or some version of it. The thing I'm really after is the ability to have an audience/performer facing setup (could be one speaker each), and then a player-only facing option. So one way to do this would be to switch between one piano mounted speaker and a base speaker. So one piano speaker is always on, and I'm selecting the second speaker. This should work great if the speaker impedance is basically the same, but I'm not sure it will be.

Also you might need to deaden/dampen the cabinet so it doesn't oscillate the piano.

Do you mean this in regards to remounting the base speakers from facing toward the player to facing the audience? (Why would how the piano oscillates change? I hadn't considered this. Are you thinking because they would be mounted to the base that attaches more directly to the piano than the grille does?)

Or are you just saying that this is a good idea in console Wurlitzers, even in the original speaker configuration?

And lastly- a tad of shameless self promotion, One of our amp boards would be a nice addition :D

Funny you say that. I just emailed Retro-linear earlier today asking about the speaker impedance the amp was rated for, so I could know which configurations would work. I actually got a very good reply, which was prompt and informative, and really impressed me in the quality of customer service. That interaction made it even more likely that I will buy your amp. :)

By the way, the Warneck amp, per Retro-Linear can handle down to 4ohms comfortably, so I'll look at what the best combos may be now that I'm armed with that info.

I do have another question. In looking at piano speakers, Vintage Vibe has the 200A and 200 version. It states that if your piano does not have the speaker screws, you will need 200 speakers (which are 16 ohms, parallel to get 8). This is higher than the base console speakers. It does not give the impedance of the 200A speakers though. Is the impedance of the 200A speakers the same? (16 each, 8 total)

Thanks for your input so far everyone.

Offline cinnanon

  • Mark I
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2016, 04:01:21 PM »
I've definitely thought about this -- or some version of it. The thing I'm really after is the ability to have an audience/performer facing setup (could be one speaker each), and then a player-only facing option. So one way to do this would be to switch between one piano mounted speaker and a base speaker. So one piano speaker is always on, and I'm selecting the second speaker. This should work great if the speaker impedance is basically the same, but I'm not sure it will be.

Check out the 214 on eBay

The (3) speaker configurations are:
1. On-board lid speakers
2. On-board lid speakers and console crowd-facing speakers
3. Console speakers (player-facing and crowd facing are on, but the on-board lid speakers are disabled).

..if only you could get a set of 22 ohm speakers

Oh and the 200/200A speakers are the same like you said
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 04:04:11 PM by cinnanon »

Offline retro-mike

  • Vendor
  • Fiesta Red
  • *****
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
    • Retrolinear.com
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2016, 10:36:56 PM »
Glad we could assist! 

Personally all though the Wurly speakers have a certain "Lo-Fi" charm they're not exactly practical for live use..
Drilling the lid to mount speakers is nerve wracking!! And without a drill template its difficult to line everything up uniform- keep in mind you get only 1 chance!!!

You could use a rotary selector to toggle between front/back/off or whatever configuration you settle on..

Post up some pics :)






Offline beginnersluke

  • Sparkletop
  • ***
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2016, 09:51:03 AM »
Cinnanon,

That's a really nice build. Why did you decide to keep both front and rear speakers in the base?

I think the idea of having both options, lets or base is great. (I've thought about doing this in the future, but wanted to get a simpler rebuild done first.)

Have you built a few like this? Again, it's really nice.

Retro-Mike, I will definitely be posting photos as I go through it. I've got to finish rebuilding my TEAC reel to reel (I've got to have a good way to record the 206, once it's sounding great), then it will be this ones turn. :)

Thanks!

Offline cinnanon

  • Mark I
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2016, 11:50:23 AM »
Why did you decide to keep both front and rear speakers in the base?

Four 22 ohm speakers in the base equate to 5.5 ohms.  If I just left two in, I'd have 11 ohms.   If I switched between 2 onboard lid speakers and 2 console speakers, the amp would see 8 ohms, or 11 ohms. I wouldn't want to see what would happen if the load was 11 ohms (maybe nothing?).  I suppose I could rip out all 4 - 22 ohmers, put two 11 ohm speakers from a 206 in place of the 22 ohmers and switch between the two, but I love the sound of 4 console speakers.  Plus I liked the thought of having on-board speakers for the player and the crowd-facing speakers at the same time for a small audience, hence the third option. When all 4 console speakers are on, the bass is great and they are loud and crisp! When it's switched to lid/crowd facing speakers, it isn't as loud but still sounds good.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 11:57:28 AM by cinnanon »

Offline beginnersluke

  • Sparkletop
  • ***
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2016, 12:29:39 PM »
Cool. Makes sense.

It's hard to get good specs on these speakers, but I guess there's quite a difference in sensitivity if you're perceiving a shift in overall loudness.

I think I've settled on a lid-only and audience and player facing option. The lid speakers (2 16ohm in parallel) will give me 8, and all for (2@16ohm + 2@20ohm) will give 5.5ohm.

I like your setup though. I just don't want to spend any more money than I need to. Here is how I was going to wire it, in case anyone is interested.


Offline cinnanon

  • Mark I
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2016, 12:46:03 PM »
Just wondering, where'd you get the 20 ohm speakers from?

Offline beginnersluke

  • Sparkletop
  • ***
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2016, 01:11:14 PM »
From measuring them (they measured somewhere between 16-17 -- I think closer to 16). This may be wrong, but I read in a few places that some of these had 20ohm speakers, which would make sense with that measurement. (Then again, I read that online, so...).  I do know, per the service manual that there were 3 different 8" speakers they used, but it doesn't say much more about them. All that said, it would be fine if they were 22 (the total impedances would be closer, actually); the thing I'd be worried about would be if they measured something like 12).

Offline cinnanon

  • Mark I
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2016, 01:18:03 PM »
Yeah that's why I ask.  I was more curious if you found someone that sold them...   I think my 206A speakers are 11 ohm.

Offline pianotuner steveo

  • MIDI Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 3288
  • A keyboard player in love with vintage guitars!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Wurlitzer 206 (207, 214 or other console) audience facing speakers in base
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2016, 12:07:47 PM »
Don't forget that wiring in series, or parallel or a combo of series/parallel will alter the impedance. They don't always have to be wired in parallel, which would just cause the impedance to drop. Two 11 ohm speakers wired in series will be 22 ohms for example.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...