Rhodes action chirping noise on release.

[explodingPSYCH]

I'm trying to finish setting up my Stage 73 to prepare it for the VV Miracle Mod, but I've run into a strange issue while adjusting escapement.

I'm trying to get as soft a touch as I can, while also not choking the hard notes, but now some of my notes are making strange noises when I hit them hard and then release them. Here's a video:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/L76Z1dVuy9JaEUFP2

If I lift and drop the hammer with my finger, the noise doesn't happen. It only happens when I actually play the key and then release. It also doesn't happen if I pull the damper down and release.

The last adjustment I made was to shave some of the height off of the side blocks that hold the harp and damper rail on. (as referenced in this video: https://youtu.be/hSvOh8oMIUw?t=189 )
Unfortunately I did shave the bottom part instead of the top, so I may need to shim the bottom and do it again to the top. The only complication here is that there is some kind of weird black material on one block acting as a shim, but it's glued on (there are two layers of it).

Any suggestions on how to address this?

[Ben Bove]

Hi, thanks for the video.  Always helps in diagnosing problems.  First off, let us know the steps you're doing to adjust the escapement - are you noticing the problem is worse or better in certain cases?

There are a couple different things going on, but pay attention to the 2 parts of any strike - does the noise happen when you hit a key (happens on attack), or does it only happen on release of a key, after attack.  I'm hearing a couple notes that have mechanical noise when you release after an attack, then on some other notes, I'm hearing mechanical buzzing or other noises on initial attack only.  Those are two separate issues.

You may want to play some of these notes with the sustain pedal down, and that will help you differentiate what happens on attack or release, as the sustain pedal will eliminate the dampers on release from the equation.

Anything that's strictly a buzz on attack - check for tonebars touching neighboring tonebars, or the metal braces.  For bass/low notes, it could be tines swinging high enough to contact a neighboring tonebar.  See if moving the tonebars temporarily by hand clears up the attack noises.  Sometimes adjusting a tonebar screw (that are often bent) will move a tonebar in a direction out of the way of colliding with a neighbor.

For the core problem I think you're talking about, the noise seems to be when you release an attacked note, and the tine is dampened by the felt.  If you lift and drop the hammer or just pull the damper down and let it go, the tine swing is not part of that equation and therefore doesn't replicate the problem.  So, you're specifically dealing with a tine swing coming to a stop (which is the job of the damper, but definitely a few sound louder than necessary).

Take a look at the actual damper felts themselves on the offending notes.  Make sure there isn't any glue on the top surface or even on the sides, towards the top.  Any hardness in the felt will be heard as that hard surface interacts with a metal tine.  It would be the equivalent of stopping a diving board from vibrating with a pillow or a piece of wood.

If a damper arm doesn't have enough tension in it, it will bounce off the tine repeatedly when you release it rather than stop it on a dime.  That repeated bouncing can make mechanical noise.  Your piano is the hybrid wood hammer version, with single damper arms, so they're a bit more susceptible to "bad bending" when someone tries to bend the damper tips up.  If they're not bent correctly, they may get bent too far down the shaft and reduce arm tension.  It's a little hard to get inside to check, as you need to remove the damper sustain rail under the harp, but check to see if the bad notes look like the damper felt is bouncing around worse than neighboring notes, when you release after a strike.  The frame rate on the video is just fast enough that I can't make it out.

As a note, the black material acting as a shim is a factory method.  Sometimes there is 1-3 shims, sometimes a repair tech later removed it to lower escapement.  Depending on the piano (and your vintage of piano had a lot of factory tech variability), you may want to leave it on there.  Shims usually are on the bass (left) side of the piano - the treble section doesn't have as much of an escapement problem, as the tine swing is much less.

[explodingPSYCH]

I finally got some time to work on this again.

So I tried adjusting the tension of the arms. You're assessment seems to be correct... it does appear to be the damper felts bouncing as they try to dampen the tine. There is no glue or hardness to the felt tips. I tried adjusting the tension on the arms at the base, sort of creating an overall curved shape to them, as show in this first video. They all appear to have the same tension, at least from the base.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7uTUMsvoXGSDTuc39

When I shim up the harp, it seems to get worse, but going back to normal height doesn't seem to solve the problem and i'm not sure how to lower the harp fruther with the weird black shims on the bass side. I'm not even sure if I'd want to. Most likely the adjustment needs to be made on each individual damper.

Also worth nothing the sort of frog "ribbit" sound seems to be moving around from key to key. It seems like finding a spot where the damper arm is not doing it, but still actually muting the tine is pretty difficult. It seems to be a very small target. Any further advice?

Here's another example of the ribbit/bounce, though less metallic than before:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BWfCTjGexmTi9SM2A

Here's a picture of the damper arms as they are currently shaped:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Htzh3uRrhrpKnTBU7

[conke]

Does the sound chirp even through an amplifier? Rhodes are mechanically noisy, and maybe the noise is more related to the hammers bouncing on key release (which you don't get so much if you just move the hammers without pressing the keys). The miracle mod definitely made my hammers quieter on release. Also, installing the miracle mod might actually have an effect on the escapement, in which case you'll probably have to adjust the escapement again afterward.

[explodingPSYCH]

Does the sound chirp even through an amplifier? Rhodes are mechanically noisy, and maybe the noise is more related to the hammers bouncing on key release (which you don't get so much if you just move the hammers without pressing the keys). The miracle mod definitely made my hammers quieter on release. Also, installing the miracle mod might actually have an effect on the escapement, in which case you'll probably have to adjust the escapement again afterward.

The chirp doesn't play through the amp, but it does translate into a slurring of the dampening of the note. Where it should normally cut off cleanly there is a blurry decay of the note.

Do you think I should proceed by doing the miracle mod and then coming back around to escapement/harp height? I thought they suggested that escapement should be done before the mod, but I could be mis-remembering.

[pnoboy]

If the dampers aren't working correctly, then you need to figure out what the problem is and fix it.  The miracle mod is unlikely to do that except by chance.  If you haven't checked, be sure there is a bit of looseness in the bridal straps when the dampers are resting on the tines.  Did you check that the damper tray is completely away from the dampers when the sustain pedal is released.  You mentioned checking the damper felt, and I it seems you checked that the dampers weren't bent such that the dampers had little force against the tines.  The problem has to be something simple--there's not much to the damper mechanism in a Rhodes piano.

[explodingPSYCH]

So it turns out that there is some high pitched chirping at the end of some notes in the amp. It's just not the same sound as the physical bouncing of the hammers and dampers.

I'm finding it difficult to find a good position for the dampers that doesn't either cause the tine to touch them on hard hits, or doesn't dampen quickly enough to avoid a blurring or chirping at the end of the note.

Could this be a side effect of me having cut the wrong ends of my side blocks?

I've since shimmed them, but I'm starting to wonder if variation of this height could somehow be effecting the dampers "sweet spot" and making it harder to place them correctly.

[Tim Hodges]

From having a look at that first video I can see there's a couple of different problems.

The first notes appear to have little tension on the bridle strap, the knocking sound appears to be from the hammer then hitting the wood of the key as the bridle strap pulls it down after the tine has been struck but there's not enough tension to keep the hammer down so it bounces up and then rests (you can also see the hammer bouncing in the left hand corner of the screen.)

0:29 seconds in there is a different sound which is a rattle, this looks to be that the damper felt isn't giving enough clearance so the tine is immediately hitting the felt on it's initial strike. This is an easy fix and just requires the end of the damper felt to be adjusted to suit.

I suspect that shaving the bottom harp support has now reduced the amount of escapement on the bass end by too much. Can you put the harp back on and press down the lowest key (don't press too much so that the key goes in to after touch) Then take a ruler and measure the difference between the top of the hammer tip to the tine (ideally it should be 1/2" (12.7mm) but I imagine yours will be a lot less than this.) Also worth checking it at the top end too where it should be 1/16" (1.59mm). Whilst we're at it are all tonebars set at the same height? The space between the harp and the bottom of the tonebar should be the width of a tine block.

See image 1:

[explodingPSYCH]

Thanks for the measurements. I was able to get the correct distances by removing the shim from underneath the high end harp support, but leaving a shim under the low end harp support.

As far as the metal clicking, I discovered the problem: the "stem" of some of the dampers are somehow smacking into the sustain bar based on their curvature. By curving them down a little bit at the base, the metal clacking goes away. Now I'm free to adjust the dampers without that additional issue creeping into play.

[Tim Hodges]

Great, glad to hear it's getting better.

[explodingPSYCH]

Well, looks like I may have caused a new issue when adjusting my damper arms. I have another thread here (Miracle Mod Install Problem) and it turns out that my bridle straps may not be tight enough to keep the hammers from over swinging.

Any thoughts on ensuring proper tension on the straps would be appreciated. I'm trying to install the miracle mod, but all but the highest octave of my key hammers are "overshooting", or jumping off the pedestal, instead of locking into place where the miracle mod bump is placed.

[pnoboy]

The bridle straps need to be adjusted so that when the key is at rest, and the dampers are touching the tines, the straps are loose, and would allow about 1/8" (3 mm) further upward movement of the hammer tips before being tight.  That will allow good damping, and also cause the dampers to be pulled sufficiently away from the tines so as not to contact the tines on a hard blow, when the key is down.  These adjustments are more critical at the bass end, where the tines swing in such a wide arc.

The bridle straps do not prevent the hammer from swinging, nor is it their purpose

[explodingPSYCH]

The bridle straps need to be adjusted so that when the key is at rest, and the dampers are touching the tines, the straps are loose, and would allow about 1/8" (3 mm) further upward movement of the hammer tips before being tight.  That will allow good damping, and also cause the dampers to be pulled sufficiently away from the tines so as not to contact the tines on a hard blow, when the key is down.  These adjustments are more critical at the bass end, where the tines swing in such a wide arc.

The bridle straps do not prevent the hammer from swinging, nor is it their purpose

That was my thought too, but no one on the forum can come up with a solution to my "overshooting" problem, and when I pull up on the dampers (creating more tension on the bridle straps) the hammer that aren't behaving correctly suddenly behave correctly. See this video for a short example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=QnoZBnWYthA

If the bridle straps are not meant to do this, then can you suggest what part of the piano needs to be adjusted to prevent the hammer overshoot shown in this video?

(Just to be clear, the lowest key's felt is loose as I was adjusting the position of the miracle mod bump. the loose felt has no effect on this issue, and most of my other keys with felt that hasn't been touched exhibit the same behavior)

[pnoboy]

The "overshoot" is only caused by the fact that the harp is not in place.  It is perfectly normal for the hammers to move in the way you show.  If the harp were in place, the tines would limit the upper travel limit of the hammers.  That's the whole point of the action--it propels the hammers into the tines, at which point the hammers should then bounce off the tines, hopefully to stay in check until the key is released.

[explodingPSYCH]

The "overshoot" is only caused by the fact that the harp is not in place.  It is perfectly normal for the hammers to move in the way you show.  If the harp were in place, the tines would limit the upper travel limit of the hammers.  That's the whole point of the action--it propels the hammers into the tines, at which point the hammers should then bounce off the tines, hopefully to stay in check until the key is released.

Well then, the inverse question comes to mind, as the upper keys on my Rhodes are not "overshooting" off the pedestal. They lay flat on the pedestal at the end of their swing, no matter how hard I strike. What is causing them to not strike up as hard?

Video comparing the two behaviors:

https://youtu.be/mGzz1FqevMQ

[Tim W]

Those hammers in the upper range are hitting the longer damper arms and rebounding off of them. Actuate the full travel of a low hammer and high hammer slowly using your hand (not by depressing a key) and you will see what is going on.

Good luck!

[explodingPSYCH]

Those hammers in the upper range are hitting the longer damper arms and rebounding off of them. Actuate the full travel of a low hammer and high hammer slowly using your hand (not by depressing a key) and you will see what is going on.

Good luck!

I see the damper arm behavior you're talking about, but I don't understand how that translates into the pedestal "jumping" behavior. If the damper arm is in fact causing this behavior, are you saying that it is normal for the hammers to lift off the pedestal as shown in the video above?

My concern is that when I apply the Miracle Mod to the highest key, it seems to "lock" the pedestal in place no matter how hard I hit the key, but when I install in on my lowest key, I cannot get that same behavior. One of the two keys is not behaving correctly, unless the keys are suppose to behave differently.

If hammer behavior based on the damper arm length, then I should be able to predict where the behavior changes based on damper arm length, but that's not what is happening. The damper arms and hammer behavior do not correlate. Only about the highest octave or so seem have the hammers laying flat on hard blows, while the damper arm length is the same for almost all of keyboard (Save the lowest octave or so).

Am I mistaken in thinking that a goal of the Miracle Mod is to make the hammers behave uniformly on all pedestals?

[Tim W]

On the keys with the longest damper arms (usually the last 2 octaves on a 73 key), the longer damper arms limit the upward travel of the hammers so they never get to the point where they can severely overshoot- the hammer rebounds off the damper arm and bounces back.  That is why you hear that loud click sound on the upper keys.

On the lower keys, since the harp is not in place, and the damper arms are shorter (only slightly in the midrange, but they are enough shorter), the hammers can and will overshoot and can get stuck beyond stop-lock.

This would happen whether or not you have the bump mod installed.  The bump, when properly placed, should be out of the way of the hammer cam by the time stop-lock is reached.  All the bump does is lighten the action and makes the piano easier to play because the hammer pivots on a smaller area of contact with the pedestal.

You are basically chasing a 'problem' that isn't real.  When you put the harp back onto your piano, the hammers will rebound off the tines and enter stop-lock- they will never be able to travel up as far as they do in your video without the harp in place.

[explodingPSYCH]

On the keys with the longest damper arms (usually the last 2 octaves on a 73 key), the longer damper arms limit the upward travel of the hammers so they never get to the point where they can severely overshoot- the hammer rebounds off the damper arm and bounces back.  That is why you hear that loud click sound on the upper keys.

On the lower keys, since the harp is not in place, and the damper arms are shorter (only slightly in the midrange, but they are enough shorter), the hammers can and will overshoot and can get stuck beyond stop-lock.

This would happen whether or not you have the bump mod installed.  The bump, when properly placed, should be out of the way of the hammer cam by the time stop-lock is reached.  All the bump does is lighten the action and makes the piano easier to play because the hammer pivots on a smaller area of contact with the pedestal.

You are basically chasing a 'problem' that isn't real.  When you put the harp back onto your piano, the hammers will rebound off the tines and enter stop-lock- they will never be able to travel up as far as they do in your video without the harp in place.

Right, I'm pretty sure the behavior will go away when I put on the harp. I think what is causing the variation in behavior might be the slight variance in the length of the damper arm due to the angles being adjusted. Some keys seem to be getting blocked while others are not. I guess checking final travel w/ the bump shouldn't be done with a hard hammer strike, but rather a softer blow.