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Customize or bone stock

Started by Johnnyfever, November 14, 2017, 07:40:41 PM

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Johnnyfever

New forum member, figured I would start off by getting some opinions on my current project.  I buy and sell a lot of music gear.  Some of it I get for really cheap, but it is hammered.  I enjoy restoring these things if that is what I deem best, and with others I really enjoy going custom.

For example.  I picked up a decent shape cosmetically but really messed up electronically 1970 dual showman reverb with dual 15 cab.  I decided to fully restore it to stock with almost all NOS parts.  I did keep every single thing I replaced, even the grill cloth so someday if someone wants to take it back to looking vintage they can.  Mainly with this one, I wanted it to look showroom mint condition and fully stock.

On the other hand, I recently got a Jenco 2.5 octave vibraphone for $50.  I went nuts on the thing.  Full teardown, milled some of the metal stand parts that were bent or missing, polished the bars, and painted the whole thing in a heavy large metal flake and silver paint.  It turned out looking really nice, but absolutely nowhere near stock.

That brings me to this Rhodes.  Yesterday I picked up a 1972 rhodes suitcase 73.  The piano itself is in very good condition.  All keys work well, cosmetics and keys in great shape.  Preamp and tremolo are flawless.  After I played it for about five minutes though it went silent.  I'm guessing it is one of the 4 transistors that are now impossible to find.  I am still undecided whether to change the amplifiers to a silicone or stick with the germanium.  I am going to a tech locally next week to troubleshoot and discuss the options, but either way, I got it for such a good price and am going to keep it for life, so I don't mind putting some money into bringing it back up to snuff.

The exterior is where I'm thinking about doing some custom stuff.  Maybe going with a red, white or silver tolex, painting the top to match and adding some heavy metal flake.  Possibly going with a non fender style grill cloth etc.

I'm torn on this one though because on the one hand it is an iconic enough instrument I feel a bit guilty changing it from the stock look of a rhodes, but on the other hand whenever I see one someone has done some custom exterior stuff to I love it.  I am undecided, but leaning toward custom for 2 reasons.

One of the reasons is that there are some things like the vintage vibe cheek block, upgraded amps and a few other "mods" that make sense from a usability perspective.  If I am going to change it from stock electronically, I figure I've already pissed off the purists so why not go for broke.

The second reason is there is something so sexy about seeing a custom rhodes that sounds as good as it looks.  Since I am keeping it for myself anyway, I think it would be a fun project customizing it.  I do this with everything from my motorcycle, golf cart, even my tractor has some custom stuff on it.

Anyway, what do you think?  Convince I am wrong or right to customize it.  Even in my own band we can't come to a consensus.

Alan Lenhoff

While my strong personal preference is for an original item, you should not hesitate to customize your Rhodes.

You won't be depriving anyone of the opportunity to have a stock Rhodes.  There are plenty of original ones for sale.  And from a resale point of view, Rhodes buyers aren't like some guitar and amp collectors, who think you've ruined a piece of vintage gear if you replace badly stained and ripped grille cloth, re-finish a guitar body or re-cap an amp.  Rhodes players are much more practical.  They are happy to buy one that has been restored with new parts. And some of the highest prices go for pianos that have been skillfully and tastefully customized.

I would never think of customizing any of my other vintage keys. But for reasons I can't explain, pretty much anything goes with a Rhodes.

Go for it!

Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

Alan Lenhoff

Just to bolster that "anything goes" with a Rhodes judgment, take a look at the website of the Chicago Electric Piano Company: http://chicagoelectricpiano.com/

Max Brink does all sorts of wild custom Rhodes:  Seafoam green, Copper, White, Blue Sparkle, Tweed.  People love them.

Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

sean



Customize it.  Make it your own display piece.

However, I don't recommend Heavy Metal Flake.  Smooth Jazz Flake or Fusion Flake would be more appropriate.

Les Nessman

Johnnyfever

Quote from: sean on November 14, 2017, 10:23:12 PM


Customize it.  Make it your own display piece.

However, I don't recommend Heavy Metal Flake.  Smooth Jazz Flake or Fusion Flake would be more appropriate.

Les Nessman
Nice.

Johnnyfever

I decided to go with red tolex, black/red mojoweave grill cloth, paint the top a sparkle red.  All new stock hardware.  Going to convert to silicone transistors (vintage vibe kit) and put the vintage vibe power supply/outputs cheek block, VV effects loop wiring.  Will paint the cheek blocks sparkle red to match the top.  Im also going to sand and polish the "C" suitcase aluminum legs as they are a little rough. This will be a fun winter project.  All the cosmetic stuff is ordered, but I'm waiting until I meet with my tech before I order electronics as I want his opinion.

sean


Sounds great.
Dark red tolex, or bright red tolex?  One of these?

Wow the snakeskin one looks sharp, maybe too dark.

Good call on painting the cheek blocks that will make them fit in better.  I can't wait to see photos.

Sean

Johnnyfever

The bright bronco.  I have an ac15 and another custom boutique tuber in the same color, so it will look at home in the studio.  I have a message walkabout scout and extension cabinet in that wine taurus with tanned leather corners and woven straw grill.  It looks very sharp but a little too classy.  Wanting the Rhodes to be more irreverent

Student Rhodes

I come from the guitar world where often, depending on the make, any change to the original guitar-- especially the finish-- is sacrilege.  So it's refreshing to me that that almost anything goes in the Rhodes world.  I'd guess this is partially because at the Rhodes lowest point (post DX-7), one could get a very nice Dyno'd piano with a flight case literally for $200-$300.  Even today a nice condition, dead stock Rhodes suitcase might probably run you somewhere between $1500-$2500?  Not a lot of money for a premier instrument, when compared to the prices that vintage guitars pull.

Thinking about it now, the more relaxed attitude about modifying a Rhodes may also have to do with the high number of parts that need to be replaced over time, just to make the instrument functional.  Felts, grommets, screws, tines, tips, electronic components, and unless you have a road case, the tolex and grill cloth.  Compare that to a guitar which, depending on a player's style, might perhaps some day need a refret.  But that's about it.  There just aren't that many parts to replace on a guitar outside of loss or damage, so there's more of a premium put on its originality.  And yeah, maybe a lot of guitar players are a tad fetishistic.

So I'm thinking the market value of the instrument might be the real reason it's okay to mod a Rhodes.  The Rhodes used to be ubiquitous for rock, funk, soul, country etc.  There are tens of thousands of them out there.  But only a select few players are willing to haul around or store something that an weigh a couple hundred pounds, making the relative demand for the instrument, thus keeping the price low compared to other vintage instruments.

To that point, when was the last time anyone even heard of someone paying 3K-4K (or more) for a Rhodes that was stock?  It seems to me the only Rhodes piano one might pay that much for would have to be be one that has been heavily modified-- midi upgrades, custom amps or preamp, custom color tolex and harp cover, fine exposed wood cabinetry etc.

Yet, with that said, I've got a beautiful '69 Suitcase redone in ivory tolex with a pearl harp cover, powered by two 60 watt Dynaco Mk III tube power amps, with the legs, name rail and damper pedal polished to a mirror finish, but I think it'd be a very long wait indeed before someone was willing to plunk down the money to cover what I have into it.

I tend to think of these pianos the way car guys think of their creations.  There are those guys that want to restore to original, and others who make a car more special through modification and neither is wrong...usually.
Of course, some vintage cars are certainly devalued through modification, but others only find value after they've been "tricked out", as we used to say. 

So, I appreciate trying to keep a Rhodes as close to original as I can when dealing with a piano that's mostly "there", but if I'm salvaging a basket case, I have no problem saying, "express yourself!"

Phew!  Long post.

Johnnyfever

Got the tolex, electronics and hardware done, just waiting on a different grill cloth.

Tore the tolex off the upper 2 parts tonight, but I'm a few inches short of tolex, so I'll have to order another yard.  Should be fine though as I have a lot of sanding and a bit of woodwork to do on the top sections.

Johnnyfever

Getting there.  Still have to paint the cheek blocks and top heavy sparkle red. 

Johnnyfever

I did have an issue.  When I hooked it up to test it, im only getting the right speaker, both front and back.  There are 2 amplifiers in the speaker cabinet.  I can swith the connection to either one, and still get only the right side, so it is not one of those.  The speaker wires come out of the big box with the transformer in the cabinet, so the problem is either there or in the preamp on the top section. 

Questions is, is this a common malfunction, and where should I begin my troubleshooting?

Johnnyfever

Also found out this was one of the 3 rhodes used on tour with the righteous brothers.  There was 2 of these 73 suitcases and an 88 stage.  All 3 ended up being purchased by a pawn shop in Spokane WA.  I am in the process of finding out the name of the seller.  Story goes he and his wife moved up here to the northwest for the beautiful scenery, but quickly tired of shovelling snow in the winter LOL.  He decided to move south, and also that this trip would be made without 3 rhodes in tow.

If any of you might know someone who can shed more light on this, I'm all ears.

Johnnyfever

Did a bunch of testing and believe it or not, both speakers coming out of one of the speaker outputs were good, and both of the others coming out of the other output were bad.  Just coincidence.

So..

With these being 32ohm speakers, is there an upgrade speaker or should I just look for some vintage working fender suitcase speakers?

pnoboy

Are you sure the speakers are 32 ohm?  That seems unlikely.  One might expect 2 16-ohm speakers in parallel, 2 4-ohm speakers in series, or even 2 8-ohm speakers in parallel.

Johnnyfever

32ohm in parallel to be 16ohm at the amp.  I am taking them in to get fixed tomorrow.  being as they are 32ohm, they are a bitch to find replacements for, and is well documented even on this forum.  I threw in some g30 clones I had that were 8ohm and ran them in series to put the resistance at the amp at 16ohm.  Sounds great!

Johnnyfever

The other thing I'm going to definitely do is make either a 2 layer opposing grain solid pine baffle or 1/2" baltic birch baffle front and back.  This pressboard baffle is garbage.  Heavy and weak with no redeeming resonant qualities.

pnoboy

A lighter solution would be 1/2" or 5/8" plywood with some pine ribs as stiffeners.

Johnnyfever

The baltic birch is a 1/2" finish grade plywood.  Might need a center strongback, but it is pretty rigid and holds flat well, so might not need it as the stock fender speakers are pretty light.  We will see.  It's all together and working great now, so I'm having too much fun playing it to work on it much more.

Student Rhodes

Quote from: Johnnyfever on January 21, 2018, 11:20:36 PM
Getting there.  Still have to paint the cheek blocks and top heavy sparkle red.

I just noticed the Fender badge above the damper pedal.  Nice touch!

Johnnyfever

I had 2 for the restoration, but vintage vibe had a deal where if you spent a certain amount, they threw one in.  Seemed like a good place to put it.

okie

Cool project, please document how you go about doing the sparkle top, I may have to try that someday.

Johnnyfever

The more I get into researching it. the more I think I will have it professionally done.  Couple reasons why"

The sparkle I want is a large flake sparkle.  This large sparkle can't be shot through a gun, at least not a normal one.  I have been asking around, and it seems it is kind of "sifted" on top of a wet adhesive (wet paint, a wet clear etc).  then enough coats of clear to build up around the glitter until it is filled in and smooth.  Let cure (30 days if poly), flatten and buff. 

I would hate to put all that work into it and it turn out like garbage.  There is a guy locally who tricks out motorcycle tanks.  He is going to do a sample and see how it turns out.  Fingers crossed.

Electrickey

Quote from: Johnnyfever on January 22, 2018, 01:10:44 AM
With these being 32ohm speakers, is there an upgrade speaker or should I just look for some vintage working fender suitcase speakers?

The other thing I'm going to definitely do is make either a 2 layer opposing grain solid pine baffle or 1/2" baltic birch baffle front and back.  This pressboard baffle is garbage.  Heavy and weak with no redeeming resonant qualities.


The speakers in these pianos were rare 32 ohm Eminence 12 inchers. If the original sound is important to you, get the speakers reconed or rewound. A good speaker reconer can wire 32 ohms. Try to get the proper cone and surround. Save the baskets as that is part of the sound as well.

Replacing at lease the speaker baffles with a multiply birch ply is a good move if the pressboard is starting to turn back into oatmeal. If you want a thinner 1/2" ply then phenolic ply is much denser than a thicker regular multiply birch as the resin used is waterproof and phenolic is almost indestructible, as it is used for boats and cement molds in construction.

This should keep those speakers from vibrating wasting energy doing acoustic work on the cabinet so they can "speak" freely.



The black coating on the face of these is like bowling ball material.

If you can afford it, get the cosmetics done professionally.

After the years go by, you may be able to get something for it if you go to sell it.

Johnnyfever

Speakers have been at the reconer for over a week.  I will eventually replace the baffles, but I'll wait until my new woodshop is finished in the spring and all my big equipment is set back up. I might laminate my own pine baffles.  4 layer 1/8".  I own a high end woodworking company and can hand pick at the mill my pieces for clarity so it should have consistent resonance while still being lightweight and strong.  I can go the HPL route like your picture as it would hold up great, but I figure if I'm going to do it make it the best it can be.

When I do redo the bafles, I think I'll also go with a silver 1/4" piping as well.

Electrickey

Quote from: Johnnyfever on February 02, 2018, 09:41:28 PM
I own a high end woodworking company

Musician cabinet maker's paradise.

You may as well just make an entire bottom half of the suitcase out of laminated pine and don't even bother covering it.

The tolex is a mask deadening sound not to mention the glue.

Keep your silver piping.

Then you'll start dreaming of the piano case itself out of pine.

What? Tung oil? Poly coated clear?

Rainbow dyed laminate?

How about a cedar piano case with the pine speaker cab?

Kick up the olfactories while you're at it.



Johnnyfever

#26
The entire suitcase, and the whole top and lid is already pine. 

Johnnyfever

#27
This is my company.  Have owned my own company for 17 years now.  After doing this stuff for this long, cabs are more of a boring endeavor, which is why I haven't just stopped being lazy and whipped one out.  I'd rather be playing it.

https://www.facebook.com/inlandwoodworkanddesign/

Electrickey

#28
Quote from: Johnnyfever on February 03, 2018, 11:39:25 AM
The entire suitcase, and the whole top and lid is already pine.


From a sonics point, they made the other parts out of pine and left the baffle boards particle board, cutting sound quality and costs at the same time.

Getting the working parts to be at their best, the action on the keys, would be a worthwhile effort.

Johnnyfever

I had to replace 3 tines and one of the levers, but other than that, the action and voicing is set up pretty good on this.  On my other 88 stage I had, I had to voice it and mess with the action on a couple keys, but this one works and sounds great.  As I said earlier, it was on tour with the righteous brothers and then stored, so they probably had it optimized.  I watched a couple you tube vids on full restorations and came real close to tearing it down, but when I went downstairs to start I ended up just playing it for an hour.  At first I thought the tremolo was too mechanical sounding, but it has really grown on me.  If I was to do a full teardown, I would probably make some of the action improvements vintage vibe recommends.

Agree that using particle board for the baffles seems like a stupid place to cut the corner.  I'm not honestly sure when plywood hit the scene, but judging from houses I have remodeled from the late 60's/early 70's (mine is a 72) regular lumber seemed much more prevalent.  Maybe as it was a newer product it cost more or something back then.  That wide of a solid pine baffle with weight hanging off it would be prone to warpage if not kept in a climate controlled space, so maybe that played into it.  I also read somewhere that these specific speakers were chosen over others that sounded better because they were so much lighter.

After packing up my 88 stage and moving it, this thing is a breeze.  That 88 stage is A BEAST for one guy to lug around.  I have a hammond m-111 I'm going to separate into 2 parts to make it easier to move, but I'm not too optimistic about it being a one man move even after it is 2 pieces.  That M really has a good sound though, so I think in the long run putting a bit of work into doing it right will pay off.  I can see these m-100 series being worth a bit in a couple decades.  Right now though you can pick them up for free everywhere.  I would HATE to have to replace all the caps on one though, there are a million paper oil caps in those things.  That and I'm not sure if anyone has actually dug into a tonewheel to see how it works, but it is a pretty complex and precise machine.  Pretty cool to watch one operate, horrible to troubleshoot. 

As of now with the new grill cloth on and it working great, I probably won't replace them any time soon.  I would like to get the top and cheek blocks sparkled out though.  I'll be recording with it today, and I'm going to try the headphone output into a left and right DI box, then mic up the cab in stereo and see which sounds better.  I'll report back.

Electrickey

Quote from: Johnnyfever on February 03, 2018, 05:15:35 PM
it was on tour with the righteous brothers and then stored, so they probably had it optimized.

Agree that using particle board for the baffles seems like a stupid place to cut the corner.  I'm not honestly sure when plywood hit the scene,

After packing up my 88 stage and moving it, this thing is a breeze.  That 88 stage is A BEAST for one guy to lug around.  I have a hammond m-111 I'm going to separate into 2 parts to make it easier to move, but I'm not too optimistic about it being a one man move even after it is 2 pieces.  That M really has a good sound though, so I think in the long run putting a bit of work into doing it right will pay off.  I can see these m-100 series being worth a bit in a couple decades.  Right now though you can pick them up for free everywhere.  I would HATE to have to replace all the caps on one though, there are a million paper oil caps in those things.  That and I'm not sure if anyone has actually dug into a tonewheel to see how it works, but it is a pretty complex and precise machine.  Pretty cool to watch one operate, horrible to troubleshoot. 


Just because something was on tour with a named group doesn't mean that anything was done to it or if it was even maintained. Many times the gear is beat from travelling.

Alembic was making cabs out of multiply birch in the early 70's.

The Grateful Dead's sound system. All void free birch cabs with JBL's running McIntosh power amps and Alembic preamps.






Separating that model Hammond especially with those spindly legs will cause more problems and connection time vs wheeling it in whole and connecting it. You could make another cab for it altogether and park the original. But once you take things apart and adapt, what are the odds that the time and will to return it back to its original will occur? And will it be fool proof?

You might want to pay some guys to help you move rather than move it all by yourself. Spread the wealth around.

People recap tonewheels all the time. The trick is calibrating the pickups after the recap which not many know how to do properly to get each wheel balanced over the whole board. It's not an easy job. Things get worse than having left well alone. The old factory trained techs know/knew how to do this. And there are techs that have enough experience to know but they may not be in your town.


Johnnyfever

Quote from: Electrickey on February 03, 2018, 06:16:22 PM
Quote from: Johnnyfever on February 03, 2018, 05:15:35 PM
it was on tour with the righteous brothers and then stored, so they probably had it optimized.

Agree that using particle board for the baffles seems like a stupid place to cut the corner.  I'm not honestly sure when plywood hit the scene,

After packing up my 88 stage and moving it, this thing is a breeze.  That 88 stage is A BEAST for one guy to lug around.  I have a hammond m-111 I'm going to separate into 2 parts to make it easier to move, but I'm not too optimistic about it being a one man move even after it is 2 pieces.  That M really has a good sound though, so I think in the long run putting a bit of work into doing it right will pay off.  I can see these m-100 series being worth a bit in a couple decades.  Right now though you can pick them up for free everywhere.  I would HATE to have to replace all the caps on one though, there are a million paper oil caps in those things.  That and I'm not sure if anyone has actually dug into a tonewheel to see how it works, but it is a pretty complex and precise machine.  Pretty cool to watch one operate, horrible to troubleshoot. 


Just because something was on tour with a named group doesn't mean that anything was done to it or if it was even maintained. Many times the gear is beat from travelling.


I was just guessing it was maintained because it is set up great.  Action and tone is right on.  Can play it lightly and get that perfect chime or dig in and make it dirty. 

Electrickey



Quote
I was just guessing it was maintained because it is set up great.  Action and tone is right on.  Can play it lightly and get that perfect chime or dig in and make it dirty.



I think the saving grace is you've found something that inspires in and of itself no matter where it came from originally.

I supplied a 200A to a still world touring known act whose 200A conked out along the tour. Talking with the artist about the supplied Wurli, his comment was he liked the low end octave section of the piano, mentioning that it was not easy for him to find that quality of sound at that spot on the Wurli. Something that touched him as a Wurli player. His 200A was serviced by a well known at present go-to for the stars. And a piano tech I am not by any stretch. In fact my piano keys clack compared to their's ( his band's ) smooth action keys, but it didn't matter to them, him and his tech. As an artist, it was the sound he was after. And after he said what he'd said I knew what he was talking about because when I had acquired the 200A, the low octave sound had stuck out to my ears as well.

Hence it becomes serendipity when an instrument has "that tone." Luck may have something to do with it as it often does.

Now someone else who plays my Wurli might hate it for the clacking, as I do. Would like to get the clack out. I had the Wurli cleaned/serviced a while back when I first got the piano by someone who does not know Wurlis as much as he knows about pianos, having trained in Vienna at Bosendorfer as a piano tech. He came from a piano tech/builder family. What I was concerned about was how easy the reeds might break, so he'd adjusted the action to allow for more aggressive playing. It was his first time to see and work on a Wurli and to his credit he did mention that the clacks should be addressed. Which means he needs to see the piano again.

But I know his servicing had nothing to do with the low octave sound on the Wurli.

It was just something in the way that particular piano was born.

Perhaps the electric piano experts might explain how the low octave "bloom" happens.

When playing an amplified electric piano, you don't notice the clacking as much as you focus on the amplified sound of the instrument.

pnoboy

There are some unhelpful notions about speaker baffles that have been expressed.  First, baffles are not supposed to resonate--they're supposed to be stiff and acoustically dead.  A resonating baffle causes uneven loudness of some notes, and often either tubby or nasal sounds.  Second, Rhodes pianos often need to be taken to gigs, and weight is an important consideration.  Baltic birch plywood is awfully heavy, and thicker rather than denser is the way to get stiffness without excessive weight.   Here's the reason--the stiffness of a beam goes up as the cube of its thickness.  So, a little increase in thickness makes a big difference in stiffness.  That's why using a lighter wood panel with stiffeners can offer equal or better stiffness than a heavy wood panel with no stiffeners.

On another topic related to this thread, I think Fender often supplied pretty poor speakers in the suitcase pianos--I once owned a suitcase piano with the dullest sounding speakers known to man.  You can do much better these days by buying new speakers from Eminence.  Several other companies produce very good speakers as well.  Also, remember that 2, 8-ohm speakers in series provides 16 ohms, if that's what the amp needs.  There's no need to try to get 32-ohm speakers.