Author Topic: Miracle Mod Install Problem?  (Read 340 times)

Offline explodingPSYCH

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Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« on: July 08, 2018, 12:14:42 PM »
I've noticed while setting the correct position for the pedestal bump that my highest key and lowest key are not behaving the same way.

The highest key stops and "locks" into position no matter how hard I hit it. The lowest key on the other hand, only stops and locks loosely when played with moderate force. Harder key strikes has the hammer moving much farther up. It's like that for a lot of my lower keys.

Is there away to adjust this so all hammers respond uniformly, or is this something built into the design of the Rhodes? I want to make sure I don't need to make further adjustments before installing the mod.

Here is a video of the issue:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Vwo8sDxSSH5TU2Fq7

Offline goldphinga

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2018, 02:35:45 PM »
Basically, you need to adjust the position of the lower bump/felt until it performs correctly; once you find this placement and the note behaves like the high note you like the feel of, do the same for a couple of notes in the midrange. Then remove the felt you have glued down to test out the bumps, and draw a line with a straight edge between all the bumps. Then you should get the correct placement across the keybed. As the keybeds aren't cut perfectly you often get variance where the bump should be placed as you go from lower to higher keys. My 2 cents.


Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2018, 03:11:25 PM »
So the miracle mod will address the issue in the video with the lower notes "overshooting"? Is the higher note in the video the correct behavior for all keys if I'm trying to get the lightest action possible?

Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2018, 03:37:10 PM »
Basically, you need to adjust the position of the lower bump/felt until it performs correctly; once you find this placement and the note behaves like the high note you like the feel of, do the same for a couple of notes in the midrange. Then remove the felt you have glued down to test out the bumps, and draw a line with a straight edge between all the bumps. Then you should get the correct placement across the keybed. As the keybeds aren't cut perfectly you often get variance where the bump should be placed as you go from lower to higher keys. My 2 cents.

I think I need clarification on what you mean by "performs correctly". I'm unsure which key is performing correctly, but I did move the pedestal bump both as far forward as it could go, and also farther back, just to check. There was no change in this "overshooting" behavior. A

Additionally, I see that many of my highest keys do not exhibit the "overshooting" behavior, and most of the rest of my keys do. And this is without the bump present. Seems to me this may not be related at all to the miracle mod.

There must be some other factor causing some keys to do this, and others to not do this. Could they have designed the higher key hammers to behave different like this?

Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2018, 10:44:19 AM »
Does anyone have any info on the different behavior of the hammers shown in the video? Can everyone see the video link okay???

Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2018, 05:03:47 PM »
Key 65 and lower exhibit the overshooting behavior of the lowest note in the video. 66 and above lock into place like the highest note in the video.

Is this by design?

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2018, 06:19:41 AM »
I can't watch the video to see what is happening. I d/l the google app to watch it but it wants to access ALL of my photos in order to use it and there is no way that is going to happen. Can you u/l the video a different way? Or send it to Cormac to do?
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2018, 10:36:40 AM »
I can't watch the video to see what is happening. I d/l the google app to watch it but it wants to access ALL of my photos in order to use it and there is no way that is going to happen. Can you u/l the video a different way? Or send it to Cormac to do?

Try this:

https://youtu.be/mGzz1FqevMQ

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2018, 09:00:03 PM »
Well the highest keys are not designed differently than the lower. The only difference in keys & hammers would be in the hammer tips which would not have anything to do with the action/ stop/lock situation.

The mod is on the bass keys and not on the treble, correct? I think your mod may be too far forward,therefore not really doing much.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2018, 11:48:03 PM »
Well the highest keys are not designed differently than the lower. The only difference in keys & hammers would be in the hammer tips which would not have anything to do with the action/ stop/lock situation.

The mod is on the bass keys and not on the treble, correct? I think your mod may be too far forward,therefore not really doing much.

Can you see the video now?

The mod is present on both the highest key and lowest key. The lack of "locking" is present on most of the keys, with just a handful of the highest keys locking into place no matter how hard I hit. This is despite the fact that there is no miracle mod on the rest of the keys, so something is going on before the miracle mod is installed.

FWIW, I agree that the mod on the lowest key is too far foward. I was moving it to different positions and this is the last position I had it in.

Online conke

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2018, 01:05:19 PM »
Could it be an issue with key dip? I think 3/8" is the spec. If the key is dipping too far maybe that could cause overshooting. Do the front rail felts block the keys that don't overshoot?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 02:05:45 PM by conke »
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1977 Rhodes Mk I

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2018, 03:47:08 PM »
That is a good question. Inconsistent key dip can affect this. I personally like 7/16" dip. Too shallow feels heavy or "choked" if it's really shallow. Shallow can also cause hammers to bounce.

I did see the video, but couldn't see the mod in the treble
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2018, 08:29:09 PM »
Could it be an issue with key dip? I think 3/8" is the spec. If the key is dipping too far maybe that could cause overshooting. Do the front rail felts block the keys that don't overshoot?

Key dip is currently 3/8ths across the entire keyboard. The highest keys are measuring 1/32 or so taller than the rest of the keys, but the change happens gradually from key 54. The height difference doesn't seem to be matching the hammer behavior, as that change happens immediately from key 65. Also visually the height looks dead on, but it could be something that isn't noticeable by the eye.

Also, just to be clear, the higher hammer locking into place is the correct behavior for all hammers, yes? Or should all hammers jump and stick in an upward position when hit hard?

EDIT: I'm not sure what you mean by "Do the front rail felts block the keys that don't overshoot?". What are the front rail felts and what part of the key would they be blocking?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 08:38:09 PM by explodingPSYCH »

Online conke

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2018, 09:51:41 AM »
You ideally want all the keys to behave like the treble one in your video.

And I was just asking if the key dip on the higher keys is blocked out by the key hitting the green felt on keypins nearest to the player.
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Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2018, 10:46:00 AM »
You ideally want all the keys to behave like the treble one in your video.

And I was just asking if the key dip on the higher keys is blocked out by the key hitting the green felt on keypins nearest to the player.

When depressed the key is about 5/32" above the key pin felt closest to the player. Of course aftertouch can have the key touching the felt.

Offline pnoboy

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2018, 01:42:42 PM »
The much greater escapement in the bass definitely affects the hammer's ability to lock in, as you call it.  IMO, the Rhodes' simplified action works quite well toward the treble end of the piano and much less successfully toward the bass end.

Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2018, 07:43:23 PM »
The much greater escapement in the bass definitely affects the hammer's ability to lock in, as you call it.  IMO, the Rhodes' simplified action works quite well toward the treble end of the piano and much less successfully toward the bass end.

Unfortunately all of my keys except for the highest 20 keys or so are behaving with this "overshoot". Do you know of any way to adjust the escapement (or other adjustments) to match it to the higher keys? I don't have the harp or harp supports in place, and I'm stumped about what is causing the difference in behavior between keys here. They all look the same to me.

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2018, 09:30:28 AM »
You may have possibly answered your own question in a previous post. Since the keys that work better are sitting up higher than the keys that don't work as well, what happens if you raise the lower keys at the balance rail to match the height of the better working keys in the treble?



1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2018, 10:51:59 AM »
You may have possibly answered your own question in a previous post. Since the keys that work better are sitting up higher than the keys that don't work as well, what happens if you raise the lower keys at the balance rail to match the height of the better working keys in the treble?

Yeah, it's not a 1:1 on the higher keys, but this is an interesting idea! Is the balance rail the piece of wood with the pins on it that's underneath the keys at the mid point?

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2018, 05:52:00 PM »
Yes, the balance rail is what allows the "teeter totter" movement of the keys. The rail at the front is just called the front rail.

You should be able to get balance rail "punchings" on eBay. These are the paper "washers" that go UNDER the felt washers. You probably need some green and pink punchings. The different colors represent different thicknesses. I rarely use the super thin tissue paper like punchings. (White) and I also rarely use the thick cardboard punchings.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 05:56:44 PM by pianotuner steveo »
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2018, 10:52:17 AM »
Yes, the balance rail is what allows the "teeter totter" movement of the keys. The rail at the front is just called the front rail.

You should be able to get balance rail "punchings" on eBay. These are the paper "washers" that go UNDER the felt washers. You probably need some green and pink punchings. The different colors represent different thicknesses. I rarely use the super thin tissue paper like punchings. (White) and I also rarely use the thick cardboard punchings.

I ordered punchings from VV a while ago and I spent quite a while with my punchings to getting everything even, but I may need to adjust them further.

One thing I noticed is that my felts have always been under the punchings (even before I started working on it). Is it possible that some years (mine is a 1973) put the felt under the paper washers instead of on top of them??

Online conke

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2018, 01:24:47 PM »
Quality control was all over the place. My piano also had the punching above the felts. I believe you want the punchings under the felts so they are less likely to rip.
Hohner Pianet T
1977 Rhodes Mk I

Offline sean

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2018, 04:41:00 PM »


The factory team installing the felts and paper punchings was from ∀nsʇɹɐlᴉɐ.


Offline explodingPSYCH

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Re: Miracle Mod Install Problem?
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2018, 11:23:40 PM »
Well, I flipped all the felts and punchings, so that the felt is on top now. Didn't solve my issue. I also did a quick test to see if height was an issue, by removing punchings and eventually everything between the key and the balance rail. No effect.

However, I was able to get it to stop happening if I pulled up on the bridle strap. My current theory is that the straps aren't being pulled tight enough by the damper arms. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to ensure I have proper tension on the bridle straps? I did spend a lot of time adjusting my damper arms to relieve an issue I was having with choking notes and notes not being dampened quickly enough. Maybe I've now created an issue with the strap tension?

EDIT: here's a video of me showing the problem, then pulling up on the damper arm to create more tension on the bridle strap, causing the problem to go away. Is this correct, or is there some other adjustment that needs to be made to address this "overshooting"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=QnoZBnWYthA
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 06:16:42 PM by explodingPSYCH »